Co Gov tag Conviction

[ColoradoV]

Follow the link below to the article in the times - not sure why you would need to use a heli to find a Gov tag deer unless the hunter is very very lazy. They got a conviction for both the guide and the pilot. The changes Colorado has made to its Gov tags are a step in the right direction and this conviction is another step in that direction.


http://www.gunnisontimes.com/news/guide-pilot-convicted-helicopter-case

 

[coloradoshedhead]

That is one heck of a deer! I don't think you will see a shortage or a stoppage of these type violations until the CPW makes the fine more substantial. $100 is nothing to these guys buying the governors tag they probably pay upwards of $100,000 for or more? $100 is a drop in that bucket to be able to look over a whole unit for the pick of the litter critter.

 

[packmule]

All it really does is gets something on their record and a knock on points towards license suspension. Penalties were designed for avid hunters, not so much guides who can piggyback other licensed guides in the state. Wouldn't say it's bad for deer, much rather see the upper age classes shot than all the young ones with potential when folks figure out the Basin isn't what it was.

 

[Gr8bawana]

I'm sure this goes on more than we are aware of. The penalties need to be much stiffer. I would be willing to bet some of these guys are using drones now. If I ever see one cruising the hills while hunting I will shoot it down.

 

[coloradoshedhead]

Definitely not against the governers tag and them taking the mature bucks. In fact, a good portion of the money that comes from those auctioned tags go towards conservation and such(they say).

I guess as technology advances maybe the fines and consequences should too?

 

[packmule]

Need something like the IWVC to strip guiding abilities in participating states and states to reject/dissolve their hunting related business entities like they would suspend licenses.

 

[ColoradoV]

While it might not seem like much this guide also has - well had a application in several times and is attempting to get his outfitters license here in Colorado in line to be a full time guide in several of the basin units. He also has a history in getting introduced to the law enforcement arm of several states wildlife divisions in a less than favorable way... The conviction will have a effect as pertains to this single guide getting a permit to legally guide in the basin.. Other than that yea a 100 fine is a total joke.

I hear ya packmule the amount of folks shooting 150" to 170" or smaller dinks these days is sickening.. I contend we lost another entire age class of bucks due to it. Seems most hunters have to have a dink rack to stroke the old ego or take back to the wife to prove well they can well kill a dink I guess. You are right that is a bigger problem when you think about the basin recovering than one heli will ever be. Last year I took much more pride in passing on a 170" and several smaller deer than I ever would have killing one and explaining why I shot a buck like that - but I know I am in the minority. Truth is most hunters have too much wrapped up in ego to eat a tag and dont realize that great bucks even in "great" units are few and far between. This point is further driven home when even "Mr Mule Deer" has to get a heli to find a great buck in the basin.........

Just to me if you want to shoot a buck in a pen go ahead and do it hang the antlers over the fireplace and tell all how great of a hunt it was.. Now if someone buys a gov tag I would like to see the hunter do the tag justice and dont just use a heli to make it basically a hunt in a pen. I know at least one of the guys who got this years gov tag is going to hunt hard and use a bow. That is a much better use of the tag, does the tag justice, and I hope for the best for both the hunter/guides on this years gov hunt.

 

[packmule]

The status quo will just continue. Incident is now too far removed and can still assist on the hunts without the guiding license. Only real way to fix that situation, other than banning a person from the state, would be to screw over a bunch of honest folks by redefining the term "guide".

A different group of guides had found the buck they were hoping to collect the finders fee on earlier in the year. That deer had gotten shot at by a couple guys, but the way it was going back and forth across units, those guys couldn't do anything with it once it crossed the road on them. They found it during the split between 2nd & 3rd and somehow that goofy deer had busted off its G2 and G4 at the beam. There wasn't really anything special about the deer, just a compact 4x4 with a ton of tine length and extras to drive its score up. I was surprised it had exploded like it did from the year prior because it was only a 170s, maybe 180 class deer. It had some extras already and could tell where its G3s were trying to split. The extra year did that one some good and luckily it was in an area that very few people actually go look because of extremely low deer density for the area.

One thing I've noticed is that despite the negativity surrounding the LO tags, there are quite a few of those guys who hunt units yearly who don't mind eating those tags regardless of the price attached to them. They'll be back the next year and generally some aren't wanting to pull the trigger on a deer they'd like to see the following year. Same thing can be said for some of the residents who can hunt the earlier seasons more frequently. I understand that the biologist are going to try to avoid another PR nightmare by keeping the numbers in check, which is why I'm a fan of management type hunts in areas trying to be managed for quality. Not that it'll somehow make the genetics better, but to get mouths shot off and there actually be an emphasis put on killing the middle aged - declining bucks that would otherwise die of old age because no one wanted to burn a tag on them. Definitely some high grading occurring in the younger age classes though.

 

[brushcreek]

While it might not seem like much this guide also has - well had a application in several times and is attempting to get his outfitters license here in Colorado in line to be a full time guide in several of the basin units. He also has a history in getting introduced to the law enforcement arm of several states wildlife divisions in a less than favorable way... The conviction will have a effect as pertains to this single guide getting a permit to legally guide in the basin.. Other than that yea a 100 fine is a total joke.

I hear ya packmule the amount of folks shooting 150" to 170" or smaller dinks these days is sickening.. I contend we lost another entire age class of bucks due to it. Seems most hunters have to have a dink rack to stroke the old ego or take back to the wife to prove well they can well kill a dink I guess. You are right that is a bigger problem when you think about the basin recovering than one heli will ever be. Last year I took much more pride in passing on a 170" and several smaller deer than I ever would have killing one and explaining why I shot a buck like that - but I know I am in the minority. Truth is most hunters have too much wrapped up in ego to eat a tag and dont realize that great bucks even in "great" units are few and far between. This point is further driven home when even "Mr Mule Deer" has to get a heli to find a great buck in the basin.........

Just to me if you want to shoot a buck in a pen go ahead and do it hang the antlers over the fireplace and tell all how great of a hunt it was.. Now if someone buys a gov tag I would like to see the hunter do the tag justice and dont just use a heli to make it basically a hunt in a pen. I know at least one of the guys who got this years gov tag is going to hunt hard and use a bow. That is a much better use of the tag, does the tag justice, and I hope for the best for both the hunter/guides on this years gov hunt.

are you really insinuating that people should not shoot a 170 inch deer?

 

[CoHiCntry]

I hear ya packmule the amount of folks shooting 150" to 170" or smaller dinks these days is sickening.. I contend we lost another entire age class of bucks due to it. Seems most hunters have to have a dink rack to stroke the old ego or take back to the wife to prove well they can well kill a dink I guess. You are right that is a bigger problem when you think about the basin recovering than one heli will ever be. Last year I took much more pride in passing on a 170" and several smaller deer than I ever would have killing one and explaining why I shot a buck like that - but I know I am in the minority. Truth is most hunters have too much wrapped up in ego to eat a tag and dont realize that great bucks even in "great" units are few and far between. This point is further driven home when even "Mr Mule Deer" has to get a heli to find a great buck in the basin.........

Not trying to bust your chops ColoradoV, but I couldn't disagree more with your statement above. I hunt for the love of the back country and its bounty. A score or number attached to the animal means very little to me. I believe it's these scores/ numbers that drive the trophy hunting obsessed to do things like use helicopters etc. Hunting to me is an adventure and in the end I kill for meat, not so I can brag to everyone else about the score. We have a very different outlook on hunting...obviously.

 

[Gr8bawana]

Not trying to bust your chops ColoradoV, but I couldn't disagree more with your statement above. I hunt for the love of the back country and its bounty. A score or number attached to the animal means very little to me. I believe it's these scores/ numbers that drive the trophy hunting obsessed to do things like use helicopters etc. Hunting to me is an adventure and in the end I kill for meat, not so I can brag to everyone else about the score. We have a very different outlook on hunting...obviously.

I agree 100%. I've taken some nice ones but never felt the need to have them scored. I always look for a nice buck at the begining of the week but by thursday or friday I will shoot any buck for the meat.
Here in Nevada you get one chance, you pick your weapon and your season usually 14 days. Unlike some states that allow you to hunt archery then muzzleloader then rifle till you fill the tag.

 

[ColoradoV]

No worries fella's.

What I am saying that most folks who hunt the basin units find they are only able able to turn up - give or take 170" deer so they are shooting them in great numbers. If even for a year or 2 folks could lay off the trigger a bit (esp in the 2nd rifle) age class would return. So yes I would like to see more hunters hold off the 160" to 170" class bucks and that is my selfish opinion. The pressure of waiting a long time for a tag along with ever thing else involved makes it impossible for most folks to pass on yea mid size "trophy" deer. I get that - as any animal taken is a trophy to the hunter 2 pt to 20 pt.. Just for me I would rather hunt every day of the hunt and not kill a 170" deer than kill a 170" type deer and not get to hunt even that min of the last day. Not with the final ultimate goal to kill a bigger buck - rather the ultimate goal is to be able to hunt as well as enjoy that last sunset on the last day.

I also understand and respect anyone filling a tag with a doe if you like the meat but again not for me as a cow elk a year and maybe a rag horn bull is about all the family needs in a year anyway. Lets be honest here as well most hunters who wait 6-8 years for a Buck deer tag are not hunting for meat but rather for a "trophy"..

Agreed that the trophy hunting obsession is humorous on some levels and pathetic on others. Myself included in that statement. What bakes my noodle is that folks think you have to be shooting or only pursuing 200" deer to be a "trophy" hunter and this is not how I see things... Never mounted or even scored any deer I have ever shot so score to me is just a ball park idea of how mature the buck is along with its genetics. I could care less about the score (well I like outside width) but I do care with mule deer - if it is a mature animal - and IMO or in most cases a 160" - 170" buck in the basin is not a mature animal. I have grown up around big mule deer bucks all of my life and have permission to hunt some private tracts that practically guarantees a 180"+ buck every year but choose not to and hunt public land with family and friends.

For me the scouting and seeing bucks come or not come back is much better than the kill and glory part of the hunt. Quality days out not racks in the shed is what determines how good of a year I had but for many hunters it seems they can not have a good hunt unless they go home with a dead "trophy".

So the pursuit of a kill is just not what I am looking for as a end result as this is not how I judge my hunts in any way. I understand why most hunters cant understand this mentality. So yea I guess I pry do look at hunting mule deer differently than most. If I ever draw that gov tag it will be the experience of looking over every buck I could find for a entire year in all the great units with a ton of family and friends along early - mid - late and hopefully find a great buck (to me) to take a shot at and if it came down to it I would watch the last sunset on the last day as I have many times and enjoy my "trophy" with out having to pull the trigger to do so..

 

[packmule]

I don't take issue with score as much as age. There are 150" deer that need to be shot, there are 100" deer that need to get shot just from a mouth removal perspective (which is why I'm a fan of a mgmt hunt, should require less points and people get to experience the "quality" units more frequently if that's the hunt they want). Just from sitting on a unit and observing people from my glassing perches, I've noticed:

1) it only takes a 3-4yo deer to hit the 180 mark (likely a future gov tag quality deer)..those are in danger of not seeing the rut.

2) there are young deer with deep forks and decent front that sprout kickers...those are in danger of not seeing the rut just for being different.

3) there are young deer that hit 28"+..... those are in danger of not seeing the rut.

4) there are old bucks, 3pts even, that will score right with those type deer above that get overlooked because of some misconception that they won't score well. They will also yield more meat, although it may not be as tender.

5) random Joes don't always stick to the letter of the law when they don't realize some guy is sitting there watching them through a spotter.


It's a 1000 mile drive for me, I'm looking for old, large framed deer that are good representatives of the species and to take pictures of animals I have no intention of shooting. I think any old deer is a trophy regardless of what's on its head, there are just fewer of them out there due to hunters, highways and natural mortality.

 

[Colorado Cowboy]

As this topic has kinda drifted, I'll weigh in on how I feel about the "general discussion". I have shot 50+ mule deer bucks and have only scored one (it scored 179 non typical & isn't the biggest I've taken). Scoring doesn't mean a lot to me. I suppose if I ever took a 200" buck I'd score it and turn hand springs. I have shot lots of 150 or 160+ bucks (see my album that I posted with some of them) and lots that were smaller. My normal hunt is to look for a big buck early in the hunt, then take whatever I can on the last day or 2 to put in the freezer. If it's an either sex tag, I don't have a problem with it being a doe at the end. Lots of times I have hunted hard for days and just didn't see anything (especially in California's early coastal season) and took the first legal buck I saw. I guess I'm just not a horn hunter.