Cartridge extraction

go_deep

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Okay, so I've never seen anything like this. Took my son target shooting today, he has a 40ish year old Savage 110. When shooting a Remington factory shell the bolt opens like it should, when shooting the Winchester factory rounds you have to pull up a lot harder than you should on the bolt, once up it freely comes back like it should.
You can take the empty brass and it falls in and out of the hole easily, it's something worth the bolt itself for some reason. I can not find a single thing different with the 2 different casings. Shot about 10 rounds of each flavor and each one extracted the same way. The unfortunate thing of the whole deal is the Winchester rounds are shooting awesome at 200 yards and was thinking of having him use those, but the bolt being tough to lift up is definitely a deterrent at this point.

What do you think could be causing this?
I've looked over ever round multiple times and they are all regular .243 shells.
 

JimP

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The above post have pretty much summed it up.

I would contact Winchester with the lot number that is on the box and see what they have to say.

It wouldn't be the first time that some factory rounds were a little too hot.
 

troybackman

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Apr 17, 2015
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Do the Winchester bullets appear to be seated out longer than the Remington. Maybe your barrel has a short throat. Bullets touching or jamming into lands increases pressure drastically. Maybe try using a sharpie on the win bullet and chamber a round and see if you can see rifling marks. I kinda doubt that's the case but something you could try. Also compressed loads cause more pressure. Can you hear powder moving when you shake them?
 
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go_deep

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I just went and looked at the brass, I can't see a single thing different from one another, primers look right. No clue, guess I'll give Winchester a shout and see what they say, but it sounds like you guys likely have it right
 
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go_deep

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Do the Winchester bullets appear to be seated out longer than the Remington. Maybe your barrel has a short throat. Bullets touching or jamming into lands increases pressure drastically. Maybe try using a sharpie on the win bullet and chamber a round and see if you can see rifling marks. I kinda doubt that's the case but something you could try. Also compressed loads cause more pressure. Can you hear powder moving when you shake them?
Before and after the shot they are the exact same length. I do see a very slight 3 line scratch at an angle towards the back of the brass, but it's on ever casing.

Really not sure, to bad those Winchesters were doing a 1" group at 200 yards.
 

troybackman

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I was actually meaning the bullets themselves being loaded longer in a unfired case. If you chamber a live round after you color the bullet then look at the bullet itself to see if you can see if rifling made contact with bullet. Other wise you could always just get a bigger bolt handle😉
 
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go_deep

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I was actually meaning the bullets themselves being loaded longer in a unfired case. If you chamber a live round after you color the bullet then look at the bullet itself to see if you can see if rifling made contact with bullet. Other wise you could always just get a bigger bolt handle😉

I knew what you meant. Bullets unfired are to a T the exact same length, after being fired the cases are the exact same length.
Only way I can tell them apart is the Stamp around the primer
 

troybackman

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Apr 17, 2015
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Oh ok. Sorry I didnt mean that as an insult on your intelligence. But seriously if it was my rifle and it shot 1/2 moa with factory ammo I would consider just dealing with a hard bolt lift if there weren't any other pressure signs and it extracted cases without sticking. But that's just my opinion and others would probably disagree. It would stink if you couldn't get a follow up shot from a stuck case though. I carry a wooden dowel in my truck cause I've had more than one stuck case while at the range.
 
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taskswap

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One wild card is there's a lot of heat in that casing the moment you shoot it (especially with higher pressure rounds). Brass is very conductive and will air-cool quickly. It's totally conceivable to me that overpressure is expanding the brass, causing difficulty to work the bolt and extract, but re-inserting (even quickly, a few seconds later) you can slide the brass in easily. These casings and chambers are manufactured to very tight tolerances. It only takes a thousandth of an inch to make a round tight and difficult to extract.

I don't know if you have access to a micrometer but it would be interesting to know the exact outer diameter of each case just after firing, and after fully cooled.

Another thing you could try (though I am not recommending this and probably wouldn't with my rifle) is a light ring of DiChem on the outside of a troublesome factory load. Let fully dry, then shoot one round. As you extract any sticking points will rub that off and you'll know if it's something like an out-of-round chamber or cartridge. You could just have a bad batch of ammo...
 

JimP

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How were the temperatures when you were shooting? Did you happen to have that box of ammo sitting up on the dash where it got some direct sunlight?

If the case has sat in the sun for a length of time it will warm up and it may increase pressures. That is one big reason that I develop my loads in the summer time when it is warmer. Then when fall comes when I am hunting the pressures will be slightly less.

As a FYI this is a big problem with Weatherby ammo when hunters go to Africa to hunt. If they are hunting where it is warmer than usual stuck bolts are fairly common with the Weatherby ammo since they walk the pressure line real close. Stuck bolts are common when that happens
 

go_deep

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Oh ok. Sorry I didnt mean that as an insult on your intelligence. But seriously if it was my rifle and it shot 1/2 moa with factory ammo I would consider just dealing with a hard bolt lift if there weren't any other pressure signs and it extracted cases without sticking. But that's just my opinion and others would probably disagree. It would stink if you couldn't get a follow up shot from a stuck case though. I carry a wooden dowel in my truck cause I've had more than one stuck case while at the range.
None taken what do ever.
 

go_deep

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How were the temperatures when you were shooting? Did you happen to have that box of ammo sitting up on the dash where it got some direct sunlight?

If the case has sat in the sun for a length of time it will warm up and it may increase pressures. That is one big reason that I develop my loads in the summer time when it is warmer. Then when fall comes when I am hunting the pressures will be slightly less.

As a FYI this is a big problem with Weatherby ammo when hunters go to Africa to hunt. If they are hunting where it is warmer than usual stuck bolts are fairly common with the Weatherby ammo since they walk the pressure line real close. Stuck bolts are common when that happens
All the ammo rode in the same bag on the floor of the truck, cloudy 60's.
 

memtb

Active Member
I knew what you meant. Bullets unfired are to a T the exact same length, after being fired the cases are the exact same length.
Only way I can tell them apart is the Stamp around the primer
Different bullets from different manufacturers have different shapes (ogive). The previous suggestion was to color the bullet (say with a magic marker), chamber the bullet, then remove and check for rifling marks on the bullet. Though, the different manufacturered bullets may have the “same” overall length.....the Winchester bullets may be “jammed” against the rifling, due to the bullets shape! memtb
 

mallardsx2

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MY 300 WSM opens pretty "Stiff" after shooting my silvertips. The factory shells are pretty much in line with my reloads as far as pressure goes (upon my eye inspection anyhow) I pretty much ony use this gun when I need the long range accuracy and I can get set up for a shot.

And thats why I dont use it in GA. There is a good chance I might need a followup shot here so I typically shoot my 30-06 game-blaster (As was the case last year...for some reason unknown to this day to me..glad I shot again.. lol )
 
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mallardsx2

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Out of curiosity do you lubricate your brass at all? And have you checked your chamber with a light and a scope?
 
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