Bow hunting personal protection firearm.

[Tim McCoy]

My two cents would be unless you are or are willing to get very, very, very good with your handgun, look hard at a purpose built bear pepper spray and keep it very handy. It will be very difficult to hit the bear, where you need to, if you have to. Pepper spray will give you a bit larger margin of error. When out and about, in Grizz/Brown bear country where weight is an issue, I bring both. Gun in camp, spray with me unless terrain is easier. If gun is in camp and game is down, the gun goes back with me always. My buddy had to stop a charge once in AK, thankfully he had a shotgun stuffed with penetrating slugs.

Buffalo bore has great ammo, including some .40 cal hard cast that would make an impression on a black bear.
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=146

Some good info about bear handguns here and great ammo in a couple calibers.
http://www.garrettcartridges.com/defensive.html

 

[mntnguide]

mntnguide,

Thanks for the response.



I also think bear spray works in most circumstances. Firearms can work too, and neither is fool-proof.

I haven't had your experience with bear charges. I was charged once, but I guess it wasn't determined.

I am still curious about the times you have seen a determined bear run right through bear spray. Did you have to shoot those bears? How many have you had to shoot?

I have used my pistol once on a bear...He wasnt in full charge but bluff charged multiple times until the last time he stopped about 10-15 feet in front of me...I was uphill from him, and shot at him with my birdshot round that is first in my revolver...He turned and bailed back down into the trees immediately. . My knowledge of the charging bear coming through the bearspray is from my good friend and guide who had himself and a hunter charged repeatedly be a bear a few years back here in western WY. They emptied both his and his clients bear spray on her in 3-4 different charges..after that he shot her with his 45-70, which took 3 more shots and charges to put her down...All 3 shots hit her dead on, and she would run in a circle and come back again after each hit. I guess thats why i believe that if you unfortunately end up running into the "wrong" bear, very little is going to stop them if they truly decide that you are a threat to them..or dinner, whichever it is. And unfortunately with bow hunting, a lot of times we are in the thicker timber calling, where if you do happen on a bear it is most likely going to be close quarters. . The experience that my friend had, basically pushed him out of guiding in Griz country anymore. It rattled him pretty good which is understandable. They reported the incident and went through the whole investigation aspect by officials, who determined the lethal force was necessary. The fact that they used 2 cans of bear spray definitely helped prove their side of the story as well

 

[ivorytip]

make you wonder how many bears are put down due to charging but we don't hear about it due to whomever shot it being scared of being locked up for defending themselves. to be honest... I think id keep it hush hush myself. even with a witness your going to be investigated and you better hope everything looks good from judges eyes.

 

[Tim McCoy]

Mntnguide, good thing your friends had a gun. I suspect there is a reason no spray I know of brags about 100% effectiveness. I understand it does not work every time on people either. Last data I saw from AK did show a lower injury rate with spray than guns. I suspect that is more of a commentary on marksmanship than choice of weapon. Those things can flat move if so inclined.

 

[go_deep]

Kind of always wondered if the hammerless judge with every other hole having a .45lc and the other every other hole having the .410 home defense 00 buck round would be an ideal choice. Thought was if your to busy pissing yourself you'd maybe have a chance with the home defense round if at last hitting a charging bear and at least making it change it's mind.

 

[mntnguide]

I think the judge would be a pretty good one..I really like the punch those home defense .410 rounds have.. Those guns are a little bulky, but nonetheless, I would thik a pretty good bear gun, and you can blast grouse for dinner especially if you are backpacking! I carry my .44 in a custom leather shoulder holster that keeps it easily out of my way even with a backpack on and really doesnt bother me...I wouldnt carry it on my waist, because then it definitely would be a pain

 

[Tim McCoy]

Kind of always wondered if the hammerless judge with every other hole having a .45lc and the other every other hole having the .410 home defense 00 buck round would be an ideal choice. Thought was if your to busy pissing yourself you'd maybe have a chance with the home defense round if at last hitting a charging bear and at least making it change it's mind.

I would be very surprised if 00 buck out of a 410 would be a good choice. Buck shot is not known for penetration, so my guess is you'd have to hope to hit and have enough mass/energy in a pellet to penetrate the skull for a stop. Just a guess on my part. I'd go with full house .45lc with a hard cast bullet purpose built to penetrate, over the buck shot, if forced to pick between the two. The Garrett link I posted earlier has some good info in it. It may mention buckshot, been a few years since I looked at it. I am wondering how big a bears brain is, grapefruit sized? Not sure, but pretty sure it will be hard to hit, so if I were to miss the brain,
I'd hope to penetrate a couple feet of bear.

 

[Bitterroot Bulls]

My knowledge of the charging bear coming through the bearspray is from my good friend and guide who had himself and a hunter charged repeatedly be a bear a few years back here in western WY.

I see. I thought you were referring to first hand experience:

Ive seen them run through the stuff like its no big deal. Just my personal thoughts from my own close encounters each year.

My bear charging event sounds similar to yours. A young male grizzly came running at me, veering off about fifteen yards away, only to circle back and charge again stopping about fifteen yards away. The bear was scraping the gound like an angry bull, cracking his teeth, and barking.

I had my spray out and ready, but never did spray it. I was saving it for when he got a bit closer. I was working for he USFS at the time, and didn't have a firearm on me.

This scared me pretty good.

Neither spray or firearms are totally effective, but the numbers are with the spray. I really think ease of use in times of stress is the big difference maker. A bullet to the CNS of a grizzly will be 100% effective, but getting that done in a stressful charging situation is a tall order. That is why I generally recommned getting bear spray, and practicing how to use it, to new hunters in grizzly country.

By far, the best avoidance is keeping a clean camp, strict food storage practices, and staying bear aware.

 

[go_deep]

I would be very surprised if 00 buck out of a 410 would be a good choice. Buck shot is not known for penetration, so my guess is you'd have to hope to hit and have enough mass/energy in a pellet to penetrate the skull for a stop. Just a guess on my part. I'd go with full house .45lc with a hard cast bullet purpose built to penetrate, over the buck shot, if forced to pick between the two. The Garrett link I posted earlier has some good info in it. It may mention buckshot, been a few years since I looked at it. I am wondering how big a bears brain is, grapefruit sized? Not sure, but pretty sure it will be hard to hit, so if I were to miss the brain,
I'd hope to penetrate a couple feet of bear.

I'm sure the buck shot wouldn't kill it, but I'm sure it wouldnt feel good. Like I said maybe enough to change it's mind, maybe enough to make it's mind up that you pissed it off enough and it's going to eat you now to. I just like the idea of a 18" pattern to hit something verse a single bullet. The reason I think this is I honestly don't think I could make the single bullet shot count in the moment of truth, rather have spray.

 

[Tim McCoy]

I'm sure the buck shot wouldn't kill it, but I'm sure it wouldnt feel good. Like I said maybe enough to change it's mind, maybe enough to make it's mind up that you pissed it off enough and it's going to eat you now to. I just like the idea of a 18" pattern to hit something verse a single bullet. The reason I think this is I honestly don't think I could make the single bullet shot count in the moment of truth, rather have spray.

I think your choice is a wise one. I stopped a charge once with a rifle, cat, not bear, and I was ready before he came. Twas a near thing, they move very fast, as do bears. Not sure how I'd have done with a pistol, probably poorly, and I very nearly did not get the kitty stopped in time from a rifle ready position. Spray has a better success rate every time I have seen data. But it is fun to hash the idea around a bit!

 

[Colorado Cowboy]

I would be very surprised if 00 buck out of a 410 would be a good choice. Buck shot is not known for penetration, so my guess is you'd have to hope to hit and have enough mass/energy in a pellet to penetrate the skull for a stop. Just a guess on my part. I'd go with full house .45lc with a hard cast bullet purpose built to penetrate, over the buck shot, if forced to pick between the two. The Garrett link I posted earlier has some good info in it. It may mention buckshot, been a few years since I looked at it. I am wondering how big a bears brain is, grapefruit sized? Not sure, but pretty sure it will be hard to hit, so if I were to miss the brain,
I'd hope to penetrate a couple feet of bear.

I agree with that 100% on the effectiveness of buckshot, especially out of a .410....to few of them to begin with. The main problem with most people and heavy recoil handguns use that they don't shoot them enough to get good and be really confident using one. I shoot literally 1000's of rounds of .45 LC full charge BP loads in my revolvers every year. I shoot competition with Ruger single actions that really pack a lot of recoil. I also shoot my .500 S & W a lot. I usually shoot a couple of hundred rounds thru it every year.

I'll take my .50 S&W any day. I am sure I could get a couple of good vital area shots into a grizz before he gets to me. That might not be enough tho, because they are really quick, can take a lot of punishment and he would probably be too damn close before you decided to shoot. Tough decision....spray first, then shoot or just shoot. Hope I am never in that position.

 

[AKaviator]

I watched the video's of a bear biologist testing a taser on a large brown bear boar. It was really something to see. The bear just collapsed onto his face motionless. He was probably running a little more voltage than a standard taser.
I don't think that would be my go-to weapon but it was cool to watch.

I carry a Magna-ported Delta Elite 10mm when I don't have a large caliber rifle and my wife carries a S&W .44mag. My son has the bear spray. We've never had to use them though. The only grizzlies I've killed were with a .300 Weatherby and a .375H&H. They worked just fine.

 

[mntnguide]

The big bear on the trail cam, we sprayed 2 falls ago when he was breaking into the area we store meat in, in the middle of the night. It didnt seem to phaze him one bit, and that is where ive seen the spray not show effect personally, but luckily that bear was not to much of a problem in terms of being aggressive, we just had to get him out of ripping the roof off our cabin and we used the spray and what we call our "bear" gun. We have a gun that shoots basically a firework that makes noises and explodes, they are used to get birds out of farmer fields as well. That had the best affect. . I would definitely say that spray is the better choice for people to carry, as handguns are just a last minute thing. and very few people will be able to stay calm at the last second using one, myself included im sure.

The clean camp etc...is one of the largest components of safety in bear country for sure. In the summer while running pack trips, I have had bears walk straight past my pop-up tent and next to our kitchen area, which is just under a big tarp and open air, and never touch or bother a thing. I believe this is because we lock everything and are heavily bear away and safe, and never giving them the thought that food can come from there is huge. Hunting season is a bit different cause the bears start to focus more on a meat type diet than grasses and berries.

Unfortunately that isnt the case with some camps, especially the ones that are not required to be inspected by forest service, which all outfitter camps are. There is a group out of Utah that goes into the Yellowstone meadows/lake area each June to fish the yellowstone river tributaries, They have become so known for trashing the area and killing far to many fish that forest service and Game and fish send in wardens extra early just to watch them now. It is really unfortunate. The Teton wilderness is insanely busy during summer with camps all over the place, that it really doesnt feel like a wilderness sometimes, and there is definitely plenty of times where bears are getting way to much reason to stay close to people due to dirty camps.

 

[Colorado Cowboy]

Your "bear gun" got me thinking. I'll bet a flare gun like I used to have on my boat might work too. Only problem would be if you missed the bear, it would probably start a pretty good fire!!!

 

[Tim McCoy]

Mntnguide, reminds me of a story I read about some guys in AK, when the bear spray was new. They figured they'd spray a circle around the tent as deterrent before bed, so the story goes. Story is bears kept them up all night sniffing around the tent. The guy who wrote the article said they were pretty sure once dispersed, the scent attracted them. They tested the theory along the river and if I recall, bears did come to it for a sniff. No idea if true or even if the same formulas are used. Sounds like in your camp you need a 12ga stuffed to the gills with benneke's best penetrating slugs for those late night visits.

 

[mntnguide]

Haha. There was a story around Jackson a couple summers ago...Lady went into Kmart and bought spray...then proceeded to go into the parking lot and spray down her kids...like mosquito spray. Didnt turn out so well. . i will say 100% the bears in our area come to gunshots. . One place in particular we usually go for late season deer and when the elk migrate, there is a big ol boar up there each year who comes running to shots...I usually just throw a deer up on my saddle and bail off as fast as possible. I have watched him before follow my horse tracks step for step in the snow, when we havent even shot yet, he just knows to follow us. . its definitely a little spooky

 

[mntnguide]

I watched the video's of a bear biologist testing a taser on a large brown bear boar. It was really something to see. The bear just collapsed onto his face motionless. He was probably running a little more voltage than a standard taser.
I don't think that would be my go-to weapon but it was cool to watch.

Is that video on the internet? If so do you have a link to it?

 

[spotnstalk1]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fbQgjlpjgo

This thread reminded me of this classic moment on MeatEater with Rinella. "Smell us now lady!!! Smell us now!!"

Side note, I'll be packing .44mag or bigger in grizz country, personally.

 

[spotnstalk1]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUG8UPsgE3U

And of course, the classic with Eichler. "you can't even imagine." Ha!

 

[AKaviator]

It's not posted anywhere that I know. I'll try and get a copy somehow if I can.

It's been a real interesting study that they have going. They would use the taser at very close range near a fish hatchery. The bears eventually learned to recognize the smell of that one biologist that did the darting and would run whenever he even came around the hatchery.

It's an impressive video, I'll try to get it and post it.