Advice - COAL for 280 Mdl 70

[Prerylyon]

Slugz,

Honestly, I have no idea how many rounds went thru it.

I bought the gun, used-very good condition, in summer of 1994 while I was a student at Penn State. I was at campus working and studying that summer and it got used the most at that time. I did not reload, just used factory ammo. I don't have any targets from back then, but remember it shot ok?

It sat in my safe pretty much until 2013, when my bird dog died; to replace that element of hunting that left with him, I got into western big game hunting at that time and started using the rifle again. Since then, probably no more than 50-100 rounds/yr, and that's being generous. For example, don't think I shot it all in 2016 due to some family health issues keeping me from having the leisure time to get to the range.

In 2014 I sealed the stock and worked on the bedding. It helped accuracy. On top of all this, I do have a load that will touch holes at 100 yrd. In fact I shot some of those rounds yesterday-should have taken a picture of one of those groups. That load uses the same Norma brass and CCI 250 primer, but uses a Sierra 140 gr HPBT Gameking and 52 gr of Accurate 4350 coming out the door at 2,700 fps. The recipe is from the Sierra manual.

I wanted to work up a little faster and ballistically superior load within the limits of the .280 rem. These 145 Speers I too heard were very forgiving, and being a little heavier, with the added speed & higher BC would be better far out.

Regards,

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[Slugz]

Roger.....you may then just be seeing the difference between the RL19 and A4350 powder. If I remember correctly that the 4350 is made more for the 270-280 size cartridges and the RL for slightly larger than that. Although both work in many applications.....that barrel sounds like its in good shape.....so that would make me think the tolerances are also better due to the age......which would result in maybe it being a little more finicky than newer rifles that have bigger tolerances due to manufacturing.

When I polled my bench shooting crowd a few of them asked why the RL19 and not a 4350 or 4831 to squeak out a little more FPS...FYI

Factor in your 22" barrel and the 2700FPS I think is right in line with the 4350

 

[Colorado Cowboy]

Other than Nosler Partition in my .300 Wby Mag, all I use I everything else (.25-06, 257 Wby, 30-06 & .243 ) is Sierra Game King BTs. I have used Sierra bullets for over 50 years and they perform great for me. I also use them in my .220 Ackley Improved Swift. Given that the Speers are only 5 grains heavier, I can't see where ballistically they would be better than the Sierras.

 

[Prerylyon]

Specifics on my "accurate" 140 gr load in this rifle:

3.330" COAL
140 gr Sierra HPBT Gameking
52 gr AA4350
2,700 fps

I got the idea to try Reloader-19 powder after seeing some hot velocities reported for loads in my gun. Sierra lists that 52gr of AA4350 as max, hence I never went past there.

The December 2012 edition of 'gunsmagazine. com' had an article by John Barsness on the .280 remington. Some loads were shared for different rifles. My exact rifle had a load reported yielding 2,975 fps with 58gr of Reloader-19 using the 140 gr Nosler Partition. Reported group size was 0.85". COAL used was not listed. Nosler also have some data showing higher velocities using the Reloader-19. So, I got interested in that powder.

I will keep those other powders in mind. I have plenty of AA4350 to mess with.

Speer lists 54 gr of AA4350 in their test barrel at max load giving 2,879 fps. I will lose some speed in my 22" barrel.

Right now, I like the speed of what I just worked up; not quite ready to give up on the Reloader-19; maybe try a couple more tweaks before bagging it?

Regards,


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[alaska2go]

Harmonics in barrels & powder are a tricky thing to over come. Speed is attractive but accuracy KILLS !! With the resent data you given I would ditch the RL 19 powder & move on to a faster burning powder for the lighter bullet & shorter barrel. I have a gut feeling that all the powder isn't burning completely in the shorter barrel thus leaving a harmonics issue to inconsistent burn. OR use a winchester primer & back it of a 1/2 grain or 1 grain because that primer burns hotter.

 

[Colorado Cowboy]

How many rounds thru the barrel since you really scrubbed it? I try to really scrub my barrels (to get the copper fouling out) every 50 rounds. The higher the velocity/pressure, the more copper sticks to the inside of the barrel.

 

[Prerylyon]

CC,

Its close. Prob 45 rnds over the last 3 weeks; cleaning isn't a bad idea.

Regards,

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[Prerylyon]

'Alaska,

A buddy of mine ran some numbers on QL for me comparing Reloader-19 to AA4350, using the 145 Speer BTSP bullet in a 22" barrel.

54 gr of AA4350 is at 99.5% burned where the 57 gr of Reloader-19 is only 95.7% burned.

You may be on to something...



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[Slugz]

Harmonics in barrels & powder are a tricky thing to over come. Speed is attractive but accuracy KILLS !! With the resent data you given I would ditch the RL 19 powder & move on to a faster burning powder for the lighter bullet & shorter barrel. I have a gut feeling that all the powder isn't burning completely in the shorter barrel thus leaving a harmonics issue to inconsistent burn. OR use a winchester primer & back it of a 1/2 grain or 1 grain because that primer burns hotter.

I thought Fed215s Match , Fed215s, CCI250 then Winchester was the order of hotest/most power burning primers?

 

[Bonecollector]

I too am curious about this. I'd like to hear more on how or why it actually makes the difference it does..
I am learning a lot in my past year of reloading and I see that it will never end as bullets and powders change.

 

[Colorado Cowboy]

Bonecollector,

One thing I have found is that just because something new comes out, doesn't make it better than what you are using. I am use a load I developed 50 years ago that I have never been able to better for my 30-06. There are some new powders, especially for large capacity cases that are really great. If you have a load that does everything you want it to do, chances are you won't better it. My load for my 25-06 was developed 30 or so years ago.

Just sayin............

 

[Prerylyon]

CC,

That's really the reason I decided to mess w/ RL-19. I found that 2012 article I shared, and a couple others from the 1980s that had good results with it reported for my gun, barrel length, and caliber; but they used the 140 Partition for the pill.

Got a couple weeks to mess with this before "go time". We'll see what happens. I'll post updates.

BC,

The primers, in layman's terms, have different levels of explosive power or heat; and speed to an extent. As such, a given primer may light up certain powder/cartridge combos better than others, even larger or lesser amounts of powder; also has dependencies on hot/cold weather. Those variations can then affect how the powder creates the pressure and sets the bullet on it way and sets up the velocity one is after. This is a very simple explanation of how I understand it.

Regards,



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[alaska2go]

I thought Fed215s Match , Fed215s, CCI250 then Winchester was the order of hotest/most power burning primers?

Winchester premiers are the hottest when it comes to large rifle primers. And I beleive the 2nd hottest when it comes to large magnum primers.

 

[Slugz]

Winchester premiers are the hottest when it comes to large rifle primers. And I beleive the 2nd hottest when it comes to large magnum primers.

A2go......just asking for the knowledge aspect....is the above based upon A Squared test done a few years back? That same article then review and repeated by Chuck Hawkes? Thanks

 

[Prerylyon]

I forget where I saw it, but one of the reloading authorities had an article on primers within the last 10 yrs; gist of it was that there is some reluctance in the reloading manual community to hang their hats on definitive primer data; reason stated in the article was that from time to time, the primer manufacturers radically change their designs; after a reloading manual goes to print.

That being said, like CC points out, if you have something that works in your gun, let the range data support it and don't fix what isn't broken.

Regards,

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[Prerylyon]

Another update: this Reloader-19, at least in my gun-with these reloads-is way dirtier than the AA4350. The brass is dirtier as is the gun itself. I took notice of it while cleaning both this weekend. The brass seemed dirtier last week too when I did the ladder test on the powder charge, but I guess I didn't think much of it til cleaning the 2nd round of brass this weekend and the gun itself. Maybe a sign of the reloader-19 not all being burned? That being said, I've heard some powder is just dirtier than others.

Regards,

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[Prerylyon]

**Update**

This will be in a couple parts.

I loaded up some rounds at some additional COALs near what shot "best" last week, 3.270" & 3.290" with the 57gr RL-19. The results were similar to last week. Not the best, as can be seen:

3 shots were fired at each COAL. The aiming points were the lower and upper left diamonds. Disregard the 2 shots in the lower left; they were from another test.

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[Prerylyon]

**Update Cont'd**

So, ahead of all this today, I thoroughly cleaned the gun. Also, POI is consistently to the right; the scope will be adjusted to move the POI, think it got bumped.

I shot two 'fouling shots' with a load I developed in 2014 using the 140 gr Sierra HPBT and 52 gr of AA4350. This load has shot well and usually groups well under 1". I shot those at the upper right diamond and it shot well. This gave me confidence in my rifle.

Next, I shot a 9 round ladder test using the 145 gr Speer BTSP with AA4350 powder. I started at 51.6 gr and stepped up in 0.3 gr steps to the 54.0 gr max. COAL was set at SAAMI max - which is also my rifle's measured max - of 3.330". Aiming point for this test was the lower right diamond. All shots taken at 100 yrds.

The picture below tells the story and makes be very happy! [emoji38]

The last 4 shots, 53.1 gr 53.4 gr 53.7 gr 54 gr, are grouped very tight and similar vertical spread. I placed a penny alongside for group size comparison. I'm not sure I need to mess with the COAL at all. Velocity at the 53.4 gr charge was 2,850 fps. No pressure signs seen.

I owe everyone who contributed to this thread special thanks for sharing your expertise. A special shout out to Alaska for suggesting I give a faster powder a try. [emoji6]

I hope others can benefit from this thread in learning how to develop accurate loads for their rifles. Personally, I find it amazing how small changes can make such a big difference. All this testing was done at one range session this morning.

Hopefully, we'll get to see how antelope hold up to these before the end of the month.

Regards,

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[Bonecollector]

I'm going to hijack this thread momentarily as I've been speaking offline with Prerylon.

Before anyone gets excited, remember I'm still learning. What I'm learning is small items can make a big difference. However this scenario seems odd.

Here is the scenario:
I previously fully resized my brass, loaded it with 68 grains of powder and seated the bullet 0.050 off the lands during a ladder test. I did 3 different (3) shot groups. This was after I tested multiply powders which is irrelevant to this discussion, but may be of interest to some.
This (68 gr) was my most accurate load during testing (1/4" at 100 yards). Why mess with it you are thinking...because we are men and creatures of habit.

Sooooo, to see if I could squeak a bit more velocity while maintaining the same awesome accuracy, I decided to split the difference on the powder charge in my ladder test, which is what you should do (yes I'm still 1.5 gr below suggest max). I simply added 0.2 grain of powder to my recipe in order to see if I could get over a certain speed threshold.

However, not fully considering an apples to apples comparison, I, this time, only neck sized the brass where I had fully resized earlier.

Now: I go to the range and my chrono reads an average of 20 f/s slower than my previous outing when I had previously used 0.2 grain less powder.

My question is: Could not fully resizing the brass leave "more" room in the brass for the powder to ignite, thus causing a less explosive combustion/ignition, thus actually causing the bullet to leave the brass and exit the barrel at a slower speed (even though I actually added 0.2 gr of powder)??

For anyone curious, I am OCD.

 

[Prerylyon]

'BC,

It does seem contrary to the logic of increasing the charge and recording a drop in velocity.

You may be on to something with the slight sizing difference.

Something else must be at work here. I'll be interested in hearing what the more experienced folks think is going on.

Regards,

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