The regulations state you must be accompanied by a guide or resident guide. What is everyones take on "accompanied by?" How close do they need to be??
Wyoming Wilderness areas
- Thread starter bluedunn0
- Start date
SouthernWyo
Member
- Mar 11, 2011
- 62
- 1
They have to be in your presence. Camping with a guide or resident guide and then going your separate ways to hunt every day won't cut it.
bluedunn0, I can't speak for Wyoming. Alaska has a similar regulation in place and has recently defined "Accompanied" to mean within 100 yards when the non-resident is attempting to take game. The regulation had been less well defined but people were trying to circumvent it and coming up with all sorts of there own ideas of what "accompany" means.
It used to be that a "reasonable man" standard was used. Now, it's far harder to find that "reasonable man". Giving the regulation a defined distance requirement makes it more enforceable, although it is still a tough one to enforce.
It used to be that a "reasonable man" standard was used. Now, it's far harder to find that "reasonable man". Giving the regulation a defined distance requirement makes it more enforceable, although it is still a tough one to enforce.
Bitterroot Bulls
Veteran member
I have to absolutely wholeheartedly disagree here.
There are plenty of respectful and responsible out of state hunters out there.
I went on a DIY Alaskan Moose hunt this season and was checked thoroughly by an Alaskan State Trooper that commended us on our by-the-book hunt, meat, and trophy care. I am thankful that the state of Alaska made that available to me. It was a tremendous experience.
Bitterroot Bulls
Veteran member
That is THE reason.
A non-resident backpacker can traverse any wilderness in Wyoming, but a hunter can't hunt there? Ridiculous.
Edelweiss,
I fully agree that residents should have some tag advantages, but limiting the activities tax paying Americans can do on Federal lands they pay for does not pass muster. What is the logic to your position on the Alaskan road system? We hunted the backcountry, but entered from a road system, and ONLY saw residents on the road system, and plenty of them.
We hunted BLM land that we pay taxes for and used it appropriately. I don't see why we should be restricted from that.
It is true that there are idiots everywhere that pay no attention to the law, but non-residents certainly don't have a corner on that market.
It drives me nuts when guys break the wilderness laws in MT, but I am certain residents and non-residents are responsible.
Colorado Cowboy
Super Moderator
Bitterroot,
You got it right. Here in Colorado (at least locally in my area), the people who break the rules on off road use are usually NOThunters. The Wyoming law that says NR hunters must have a guide or local when hunting in wilderness is surely outfitter driven. In Colorado the G & F Commission, who mostly make the rules, have more seats on the commission than " non connected" hunters and fisherman. Recently the Parks & G&F were combined into one department, making it even worse.
My experience with the Wyoming Wilderness areas (while limited to the Teton Wilderness) is that there really is no problem with OHV use as these areas are just too rough and watched pretty closely by everyone, not just "authorities". The view that the public is or will destroy the wilderness areas if you let them is what the protectionists spout off as scare tactics. It just doesn't hold water.
You got it right. Here in Colorado (at least locally in my area), the people who break the rules on off road use are usually NOThunters. The Wyoming law that says NR hunters must have a guide or local when hunting in wilderness is surely outfitter driven. In Colorado the G & F Commission, who mostly make the rules, have more seats on the commission than " non connected" hunters and fisherman. Recently the Parks & G&F were combined into one department, making it even worse.
My experience with the Wyoming Wilderness areas (while limited to the Teton Wilderness) is that there really is no problem with OHV use as these areas are just too rough and watched pretty closely by everyone, not just "authorities". The view that the public is or will destroy the wilderness areas if you let them is what the protectionists spout off as scare tactics. It just doesn't hold water.
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Fink
Veteran member
That's a fairly substantial blanket statement.. Where I come from, we don't have wilderness areas, but we do have lots of private property, and it seems to me that most of the offenders of boundaries are local people, not nonresidents. It also seems as though most of the poaching is done by locals as well.
mntnguide
Very Active Member
During the summer the grizzlies are up high and not scouring for food with hibernation near...This time of year its a different story. I deal with grizzlies everyday where we guide. Last hunt a griz went through an 11,000 volt fence at night to try to get in to our camp, we obviously chased him off. We run 3 strand fence around the entire camp powered by boat batteries that hits 11,000 volts. How many DIY that have never had to deal with grizzlies have any idea how to protect a camp from these bears and are going to have the ability to pack in enough gear to safely do so? If you havent hunted around the Western wyoming areas that the grizzlies are thick in, you have no idea what its like. There is a reason any random person shouldnt be allowed to hunt in it without proper experience on how to keep grizzlies from getting free meals. The way these bears act during July is entirely different than now. They follow my horse tracks everyday hoping to get a meal. We have a couple specific bears in our area that will be on us within 30 minutes of having shot at something. Its a different game that many people do not understand because they have never had to deal with it. If wyoming opened the wilderness areas to anyone, I guarantee the amount of bad grizzly encounters would shoot through the roof, as nobody understands what they are capable of until you deal with it constantly.
Colorado Cowboy
Super Moderator
Sounds as tho this regulation should apply to residents also, given these conditions. Singleing out NR's makes no sense as the grizzlies cannot tell the difference!!! I went on a guided hunt last year to Thorofare and yes, there were bears and wolves too for that matter. Our outfitter did the same as you at our camp. The bears are smart (and conditioned) enough to know a gut pile is probable after a shot. I still don't know how they can tell the difference between a NR and a city person from Jackson!
Bitterroot Bulls
Veteran member
mtnguide,
I guess I don't understand the argument.
Girzzly bears in Wyoming Wilderness areas are more dangerous than those in other states? or outside the wilderness boundary?
They are only dangerous to hunters, but not hikers, photographers, miners, or fisherman?
I am quite comfortable hunting in Grizzly country myself, and I fully understand the risks of any wilderness activity. I don't think I need a guide to tell me how to deal with bears ... or moose ... or windstorms ... or lightning ... or steep slopes ... or flash floods ... or homicidal maniacs ... or any other number of dangers in the wild.
I have no problem paying extra for out of state tags, or giving residents preference on draws, but arbitrarily nixing public wilderness from non-res hunters for the protection of an industry just doesn't sit well with me.
I guess I don't understand the argument.
Girzzly bears in Wyoming Wilderness areas are more dangerous than those in other states? or outside the wilderness boundary?
They are only dangerous to hunters, but not hikers, photographers, miners, or fisherman?
I am quite comfortable hunting in Grizzly country myself, and I fully understand the risks of any wilderness activity. I don't think I need a guide to tell me how to deal with bears ... or moose ... or windstorms ... or lightning ... or steep slopes ... or flash floods ... or homicidal maniacs ... or any other number of dangers in the wild.
I have no problem paying extra for out of state tags, or giving residents preference on draws, but arbitrarily nixing public wilderness from non-res hunters for the protection of an industry just doesn't sit well with me.
jenbickel
Veteran member
I agree with you!
I don't think he is saying that a bear can tell the difference between a NR and a resident but living in the state where we have all these animals in our backyard, we are trained and have the knowledge of how to best prepare ourselves and deal with the situation. I'm not saying NR don't, I'm sure some do but someone from South Carolina coming out here for their first DIY experience probably doesn't fully understand how deadly these mountains can be. There have been a lot of threads on here asking about how to best prepare for bears and the back country. Think of how many grizzly attacks there are in Yellowstone every year from tourists out hiking and camping. I truly don't think that the wilderness thing is a money hungry deal. You can get a resident guide to go with and they don't have to charge anything. Obviously, people from other wilderness states like Alaska are going to know how to handle themselves but I don't think they want to re-write the regulations to allow a couple of states to be able to hunt our wilderness and not others.
When is the hating on Wyoming going to end?!
mntnguide
Very Active Member
Bitterroot-
Thats great you are comfortable in grizzly country..But that is because you have had the opportunity to live and hunt in it. Grizzlies reside in a small section of 3 western states. That is a very small percentage of people that have the ability to understand how to hunt in areas with them. For the most part the non-res that come out this way are not going to be from any of these areas and are much more likely to be from a state that has never had a grizzly set foot in it. Do i feel that some people could do just fine hunting in a grizzly area..of course. But to change an entire regulation for a select number of people who understand what they are dealing with will never happen. Also, the number of grizzlies not located inside our wilderness areas is far fewer than the amount that are in the wilderness areas.
Colorado-
I agree entirely that there are residents that should not be setting foot into the wilderness as they have no clue what they are doing. Should they have a test that should be taken by those wanting to hunt on their own in a wilderness area? sure but i doubt that will ever happen. As for your statement about grizzlies not being able to tell the difference between a local and non-res..It is not the bears fault, Its the person standing there that has never seen a 600lb bear at 50 feet to know that grizzlies have notoriously bad eye sight and usually come in close to investigate before you can run them off. For someone that has never seen that, There is a good chance it scares the hell out of them and they think they are in danger. I would say almost every client i take is not comfortable with how close we get to bears, and yet for myself I never feel in danger cause i am commonly around them and know their actions and can tell if the bear is a bad one or not.
I think Edelweiss has also put a great aspect to it in his above post.
Thats great you are comfortable in grizzly country..But that is because you have had the opportunity to live and hunt in it. Grizzlies reside in a small section of 3 western states. That is a very small percentage of people that have the ability to understand how to hunt in areas with them. For the most part the non-res that come out this way are not going to be from any of these areas and are much more likely to be from a state that has never had a grizzly set foot in it. Do i feel that some people could do just fine hunting in a grizzly area..of course. But to change an entire regulation for a select number of people who understand what they are dealing with will never happen. Also, the number of grizzlies not located inside our wilderness areas is far fewer than the amount that are in the wilderness areas.
Colorado-
I agree entirely that there are residents that should not be setting foot into the wilderness as they have no clue what they are doing. Should they have a test that should be taken by those wanting to hunt on their own in a wilderness area? sure but i doubt that will ever happen. As for your statement about grizzlies not being able to tell the difference between a local and non-res..It is not the bears fault, Its the person standing there that has never seen a 600lb bear at 50 feet to know that grizzlies have notoriously bad eye sight and usually come in close to investigate before you can run them off. For someone that has never seen that, There is a good chance it scares the hell out of them and they think they are in danger. I would say almost every client i take is not comfortable with how close we get to bears, and yet for myself I never feel in danger cause i am commonly around them and know their actions and can tell if the bear is a bad one or not.
I think Edelweiss has also put a great aspect to it in his above post.
Drhorsepower
Veteran member
Good points mtnguide.
One thing though is why are hikers allowed to go in and not new a guide? I can go tomorrow to Wyoming to go hike but not hunt a wilderness on public land without hiring a guide. That's ridiculous. If it is because of grizzlies, why don't they put on a mandatory online class to educate people not from grizzly country. Just a thought.
It's funny though, public land that well... Isn't.
One thing though is why are hikers allowed to go in and not new a guide? I can go tomorrow to Wyoming to go hike but not hunt a wilderness on public land without hiring a guide. That's ridiculous. If it is because of grizzlies, why don't they put on a mandatory online class to educate people not from grizzly country. Just a thought.
It's funny though, public land that well... Isn't.
jenbickel
Veteran member
Murdy
Active Member
And also completely backwards. Seems to me most hunters put in a lot more in terms of planning, learning, and preparation than casual hikers visiting Yellowstone.
Bitterroot Bulls
Veteran member
Edelweiss and mtnguide,
Your arguments don't hold water when non-residents are allowed to do any other activity in the wilderness, but not hunting.
It isn't about safety, and it isn't about search and rescue. It is about protecting the guiding industry. I am glad there are guides out there, and I would hope inexperienced mountain hunters would utilize them for the sake of increased success and increased safety.
However, there are plenty of experienced backcountry hunters from all sorts of areas that are either experienced, or self-educated enough to safely and successfully hunt in the Wyoming Wilderness on their own. Thousands of them do just that in Montana, Idaho, and Colorado every year.
I work very closely with search and rescue in my area, and overdue hunters are a VERY common call. While backcountry inexperience is a common factor in those calls, state of residency is not, in my experience.
I happen to be heading out this weekend into one of the thickest concentrations of grizzly bears in the lower 48, and couldn't be more excited about it.
Good luck to all, and I am glad that while we couldn't agree on these points, we could remain civil.
Your arguments don't hold water when non-residents are allowed to do any other activity in the wilderness, but not hunting.
It isn't about safety, and it isn't about search and rescue. It is about protecting the guiding industry. I am glad there are guides out there, and I would hope inexperienced mountain hunters would utilize them for the sake of increased success and increased safety.
However, there are plenty of experienced backcountry hunters from all sorts of areas that are either experienced, or self-educated enough to safely and successfully hunt in the Wyoming Wilderness on their own. Thousands of them do just that in Montana, Idaho, and Colorado every year.
I work very closely with search and rescue in my area, and overdue hunters are a VERY common call. While backcountry inexperience is a common factor in those calls, state of residency is not, in my experience.
I happen to be heading out this weekend into one of the thickest concentrations of grizzly bears in the lower 48, and couldn't be more excited about it.
Good luck to all, and I am glad that while we couldn't agree on these points, we could remain civil.
In God We Trust
Very Active Member
This in the end is the same situation as land owner vouchers here in Colorado and other crooked back door deals state Game and Fish agencies do all of the time. It is always about protecting a special interest whether it be land owners or outfitters. Funny though these things never seem to benefit the average DIY hunter. These rules are passed to pad the pockets of certain groups and hurt us. There is no way to justify this, all of these things should be voted on by every person that has purchased a tag in said state in the last 5 years and lets see how many of these regs are upheld or hold water. Are you going to tell me the guy that back packs in along the Arizona/Mexico border faces less danger from drug cartels than a guy around bears in Wyoming? Maybe we should mandate all of those hunters in Arizona be accompanied by a Border Patrol Agent. I say enough of the B.S and more common sense.
Colorado Cowboy
Super Moderator
I've only hunted it once, last year. It is really awsome country. Went to Thorofare, 33 mile & 9 1/2 hours by horse to get to camp. Unfortunately the hunting has really gone downhill since the introduction of the wolves in the park. Probably won't go there again as I am 71 years old now. It is said it is the most remote place in the lower 48, furthest from roads and towns. I am thankful I got to go and yes (really meant no), could not have done it without an outfitter.
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