Straight walled cartiges / Muzzleloader ONLY - The future of western hunting?

[mallardsx2]

Got to talking to a few guys the other day and they wondered if western states would at some point go to a straight walled Cartridge / muzzleloader only rule that would potentially help the populations bounce back to what they once were.

Some of the eastern states do this strictly for safety purposes due to the land being so flat.

In western states with these restrictions most shots would be forced to limit the distance of a shot to 200-300 yards or less basically forcing hunters to get closer.

Would it reduce the number or animals killed or do you think it would simple result in more wounded animals?


Wat are your thoughts? Think this would ever happen? How would this affect your style of hunting?

My thoughts on it were I doubt it would ever happen and it would probably result in more wounded animals due to the distances that are pretty common in western style hunting. Someone trying to stretch a shot with a 45-70 is probably a lot more likely to wound an animal than someone trying to stretch a shot with a 30-06. If you misjudge at 300 yards with a 30-06 you might be in the ballpark still, if you misjudge with a 45-70 you could miss completely. I guess it all relative and how you look at it. I dont know the average distance an animal is killed in the west, I would guess 100-150 yards but I really dont know. I could have killed pretty much everything I have killed in my life with an in-line so it wouldn't affect me too terribly much I guess. I have "reached out there" on only a few deer.

 

[Tim McCoy]

In OR, some years back, muzzleloaders were restricted to more closely resemble the more short range weapon they started out as. Harvest success with the modern versions got to the point the public was offered a choice. Restrict the technology and keep current tag numbers, or drop tag numbers to reduce harvest with sabots/scoped etc. muzzleloaders. So part of what you discuss did happen here.

 

[JimP]

I doubt that going to a straight wall cartridge would benefit animals or not. There are plenty of straight wall cartridges out there that have quite a bit of power. Take a look at the 444 Marlin, 45-70 Win, or any of the family of the 45-70. All are straight wall designs.

If anything most states should go back to a traditional muzzle loader season. In line rifles would be legal but no pellets, scopes, sabot bullets, and so forth. Since Utah started to allow variable power scopes hunters are stretching their shots out to 300+ yards and they are killing animals. It is no longer a muzzle loader season but a single shot rifle hunt.

 

[Colorado Cowboy]

first...I doubt that many states would let black powder cartridge hunters hunt with the muzzleloaders.

I shoot a lot of BP cartridge in both 45-70 and .45 Long Colt. Both can be loaded much hotter that pure M/L. I have killed deer with both rounds. One problem is that in the field it would be impossible to tell if a brass shell had BP or smokeless powder in it without shooting it or pulling the bullet. Remember that the bison were decimated with 45-70 and like calibers, all using BP. Pretty deadly using BP for sure. It just flies in the face of what M/L seasons are all about IMHO.

 

[HuskyMusky]

Are western populations down because of Long Range Hunting? Me thinks not.

Seems to me they would just reduce the Tags, or Season Length etc...

 

[Prerylyon]

Yeah, I mean, I'm no biologist, but what I think they would do 1st is cut back or eliminate doe tags across the board in those areas with population issues; for a season or more, to try to prop a population up. They'd cut buck/bull tags too, depending on the severity of the decline in an area, long term area management goals (trophy vs recreational), and what projecting game population model best describes the future trend of the problem they they see/think they have.

That being said, within ethical and fair chase common sense, I take no issue with allowing usage of primitive weapons.

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[tim]

Why do you folks assume all game populations are down in all the western states?

 

[JimP]

A lot of people expect to see elk and mule deer like they do whitetails back east. I have had out of state hunters ask me where the animals are at after they have spent half of their hunt and only seeing a few deer.

 

[Prerylyon]

Why do you folks assume all game populations are down in all the western states?

I never assumed that; was just giving a hypothetical response based on what I've read in the WY G&F news or job reports over the yrs when they talked about dealing with an area where big game was down.

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[Prerylyon]

A lot of people expect to see elk and mule deer like they do whitetails back east. I have had out of state hunters ask me where the animals are at after they have spent half of their hunt and only seeing a few deer.

Got to get up early and stay out to last legal light, too. [emoji6]

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[taskswap]

It's hard to see a big push along a line that wouldn't actually guarantee a reduction. At least in Colorado they already can and regularly do just limit the quota on the licenses purchased. I've got land in GMU 83 that I can't even hunt because the quota is so low right now (that herd isn't doing so well).

Reducing the number of tags issued is more effective both because of the immediate reduction in "take", but also because it reduces hunters in the field in the first place. Hunters are only a portion of the causes of death - stress, loss of habitat, predators, and lately disease are all big effects. Stress is the reason in Colorado you're no longer allowed to shed-hunt til May. People romping around looking for sheds were pushing animals around into areas where their survival rates were lower. It was increasing both full-grown and fawn mortality rates so they cut it off.

 

[mallardsx2]

Why do you folks assume all game populations are down in all the western states?

Example A

 

[JM77]

Stress is the reason in Colorado you're no longer allowed to shed-hunt til May. People romping around looking for sheds were pushing animals around into areas where their survival rates were lower. It was increasing both full-grown and fawn mortality rates so they cut it off.

I do not want to hijack this thread, but if you believe shed hunters, walking around looking for sheds(romping) are killing deer, then you've drank that Colorado Kool-Aid. Under extreme conditions, maybe, but the latest deer research in Wyoming is collaring mule deer in certain herd segments and that mean netting them from a helicopter in the months of Feb and March. Stress?

 

[Rich M]

I do not want to hijack this thread, but if you believe shed hunters, walking around looking for sheds(romping) are killing deer, then you've drank that Colorado Kool-Aid. Under extreme conditions, maybe, but the latest deer research in Wyoming is collaring mule deer in certain herd segments and that mean netting them from a helicopter in the months of Feb and March. Stress?

Any states that have snow-impacted animals should restrict public access until the snow melts. From what I'm seeing, we have some above average winter kills due to snow packs this year.

Why should a whole bunch of recreational folks go and cause stressed animals to exert what limited energy they have left to get shed antlers? Wait until May or whenever is legal and then go find em. Or go somewhere there is no snow.

I saw something about some bait shed antlers with GPS trackers in them being used to catch the poachers who are breaking the laws and shed hunting before it is legal. That's the problem with Joe Public - he does whatever he thinks is gonna give him an edge - snow starved animals be darned. I think J.P. causes more problems than the biologists.

 

[tim]

so are you folks with the shed issue saying, people should not be allowed to hike, or bike or just be in the woods in the spring so it don't kill the animals, or just don't shed hunt?

 

[JimP]

That is the problem, you have those out there that are not shed hunting and they are putting almost as much pressure on the animals as the shed hunters do. That along with not having their dogs on leashes or under their control.

That is the problem with not allowing shed hunting in early spring, you can't keep the hikers and bikers out of the areas unless you have a total closure.

 

[Rich M]

so are you folks with the shed issue saying, people should not be allowed to hike, or bike or just be in the woods in the spring so it don't kill the animals, or just don't shed hunt?

I'm not big on sheds or shed hunting, it does have a passionate following - and is as a good an excuse to get outside as anything else.

Some states have specific laws regarding shed hunting.

You would think that they would close all access to areas with tough conditions for the animals.

 

[tim]

Me personally I could care less about sheds, if not attatched I could care less, but I would be damned if anyone told me I couldn't hike, bike, cut firewood or do anything in the woods in the spring. Best time of year to be out in the mountains in my opinion. Typical year I sled the highcountry until may, I have already started mountina bike season and whitewater is just getting going. So many sports and people need to get out in the woods after winter.

I am assuming you folks would want to stop turkey hunting and spring bear hunting then if people should not be out in the spring. Both open here around april 15th.

very interesting topic.

 

[Gr8bawana]

Hmm...how many people go hiking, biking or firewood cutting in knee-deep snow? There is a reason some areas need to be off-limits until the deer and elk leave their wintering grounds.

 

[88man]

Even straight walled cartridges wiped out the Buffalo