Sell Your Soul For A Buck...

[AKaviator]

Interesting perspective Milo.

My lean is, there is a significant difference in selling the exact GPS location of a specific animal, to compiling public information that is available to most everyone with minimal research skills. Eastman's just give, hopefully accurate, general information to use as we do our research. One more tool for us to use. I don't feel too unethical in paying them for the convenience.

 

[BuzzH]

Seems more than a tad bit hypocritical of Eastman's-- who prides itself on the quality of information it sells. Certainly it's not GPS coordinates, but its a sellout just the same. Guess it's ok to sell your soul for a buck, just don't let the other guy sell his.

Totally get where you're coming from, and I'm in no way defending Eastmans at all here...but, there is a difference.

The information they sell is a lot of time wayyy out of date, good information perhaps 5-10 years ago. Plus, they aren't selling you exact coordinates, with a picture of a buck, where to camp, and how to hunt it...they're selling you information that is readily available on just about any GF website. More of a compilation of data that may, or may not be, easier for the consumer to maneuver through. Savvy hunters usually know about good things way prior to it being published in a magazine...and of course, things are constantly changing.

Does Eastman's information skew draw odds...very likely. Do some areas receive more pressure due to their data...very likely. But, that's a longgg way from selling an in depth scouting package, IMO.

Some things are always going to be more impactful, like pre-scouting a buck for sale to another hunter, than providing a basic over-view of an area, how to apply, etc.

Plus, you cant look at each individual technology and/or thing that gives us an advantage. They aren't mutually exclusive, but rather, additive in how they impact success rates, herd health, season length...blah, blah, blah. Each one individually, may not make much of a difference...add them all together...very impactful. My take, limit the things you can, each one makes a difference in the long run.

Its much easier to jump on things like scouting packages now, rather than let it keep having a bigger and bigger negative impact. We made the same argument with aerial scouting when we passed the law a few years ago to stop that from going on. Best to get in front of it.

I've weighed my options, thought plenty about this and I always come back to the same conclusion that its best to just stop this right now. Our resources just cant take any more pressure, IMO.

 

[Granby guy]

Seems more than a tad bit hypocritical of Eastman's-- who prides itself on the quality of information it sells. Certainly it's not GPS coordinates, but its a sellout just the same. Guess it's ok to sell your soul for a buck, just don't let the other guy sell his.

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How many people do you think you would see in an exact location if the Eastmans sold the exact coordinates to all of their public hunting spots? (Or any popular hunting person or group) those isolated areas would be over run with hunters. Now if they recommend units or regions that is a completely different offering. The units and or regions in the western states are relatively huge and you have to formulate your own plan to be successful and a unit suggestion is far from the same thing as selling coordinates.

 

[libidilatimmy]

One thing to contemplate would be the fact that if you didn't draw a particular unit one year, would you be willing to sell the specific location to hunt larger animals? It's well known that the genetic makeup of these bucks/bulls keep them trained on how to stay alive by training from their predecessors. This is information that takes effort to obtain and should not be taken lightly.

With emphasis on "specific", just today I came off the mountain from hunting a well regarded elk unit for a few days of reprieve. In which, every hunter who has that tag can by all means hunt the same area I do. While this area is open to everyone with the proper tag, I've not seen another hunter there in the last week. Why? Maybe because I've put in the work required to know what kind of hunt in general, and class of animal in the same respects, that the "specific" area will provide.

If I run into someone who's put in the same effort I have in the area, I'll say "let's work together" and increase chances for all. If I run into someone who's bought coordinates for the area, I'll tell them they are wasting their time among other things. Don't get me wrong, I'll take good friends/family to spots like this, but I don't agree with selling these locations to make a quick buck. I'd rather that I, and others who've put in the work, enjoy these specific areas for generations to come.

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[Milo]

The information they sell is a lot of time wayyy out of date, good information perhaps 5-10 .

Putting it in those terms Eastman's has other ethical issues, or maybe they just aren't that good.

I acknowledged, and will again, that the information Eastman's sells is not the same as a gps point. Nor is it the same as services offered by a guide.

Its just pretty disingenuous for one party who is selling hunting information to bitch about the other based on ethical grounds. Sell Your Soul? Eastman's sold out a long time ago.




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[libidilatimmy]

Putting it in those terms Eastman's has other ethical issues, or maybe they just aren't that good.

I acknowledged, and will again, that the information Eastman's sells is not the same as a gps point. Nor is it the same as services offered by a guide.

Its just pretty disingenuous for one party who is selling hunting information to bitch about the other based on ethical grounds. Sell Your Soul? Eastman's sold out a long time ago.




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General information is not a bad thing to bring out-of-state, and new hunters for that matter which is what we all should be doing, into the realm. "Specific" information is what this conversation was about.

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[nv-hunter]

I dont know about some people but knowing i drew my bull tag ive helped others on here with very specific information just to make sure they had a hunt as good as i did! Guess it was just how i was raised. Think ive been more then free with my knowledge about areas and animals. I know of one person that i for sure gave so information too that changed his hunt. Only thing i ask is let me know how it went and what you saw. Heck we took a guy camped down the road last year into his bull and helped with the pack out just because. Selling info is bs as is how some guides are running their operations [ think spider bull ]. Jmo

 

[Milo]

General information is not a bad thing to bring out-of-state, and new hunters for that matter which is what we all should be doing, into the realm. "Specific" information is what this conversation was about.

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Its about money.


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[libidilatimmy]

It's about the social acceptance of the sport of hunting and making sure that people like me, and maybe you, have the opportunity to participate in these activities in future years. Because the general public, who's ill informed and will vote on these matters based on emotion, look at BC grizzly hunting, will act based on what they see in the media. And yes, outfitters have brought this fight to themselves, selling inches of horn, so to speak.

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[WapitiBob]

That is 100% true.

However, Brian has hurt himself and a lot of other NR hunters with his attitude.

He doesn't get much of a say with the Legislature, the Residents that live here absolutely do.

What do you suppose many residents are going to do when its time to support or not support this bill, based strictly on his lack of giving a chit about Wyoming's wildlife, ethics, etc.?

No need to answer that, I think anyone with a clue has a pretty good idea.

The discussion at the interim TRW meeting, that myself and other resident hunters attended, 100% of those that gave testimony were in favor of the bill. No one spoke against it. The bill is going to be introduced, and we can clean it up between now and then if there's things needed to tighten it up.

I think if attitudes like his are going to continue to be those that get this kind of attention, I would expect less and less NR opportunities. Many Resident hunters are already on the fence regarding NR license allocations, how we deal with leftovers, etc. Resident hunters want more opportunity, not less, and when it comes down to the decision between limiting NR or R opportunity, I can tell you who's opportunities are going to dry up first.

So, while I agree with you that tax returns and how much money he made off Wyoming's wildlife resources isn't any of my business...there's more than one way to get a desired result.

I believe bounty hunting, which this is, is a sad testiment to what hunting has become to many in Utah. Next would be posse hunting. A few yaears ago, a picture was posted of a sportsmans tag hunter with almost a dozen "friends" who helped and managed to make it into the photo. Again, in Utah.
Following how hunts are conducted in that state it's no wonder Brian has decided to bring the bounty hunting practice to WY.
My point about his taxes was that they're irrelevant. And I agree, this certainly isn't going to help non residents in the long haul.

 

[Horsenhike]

To play devils advocate the tax issue is not irrelevant. If he is making a significant sum of money providing a service to people using the resources of Wyoming to do so, is it unrealistic to expect him to obtain a business license and pay taxes? He contends that he shouldn't be constrained by any laws because he is operating on Federal land. For profit operations on Federal land are subject to taxation and fees. Simple as that.

 

[grizzly]

To play devils advocate the tax issue is not irrelevant. If he is making a significant sum of money providing a service to people using the resources of Wyoming to do so, is it unrealistic to expect him to obtain a business license and pay taxes? He contends that he shouldn't be constrained by any laws because he is operating on Federal land. For profit operations on Federal land are subject to taxation and fees. Simple as that.

If this is a tax issue, let the IRS handle it; not the Outfitters Association's own representative. The only money the bill's author cares about is what goes in his pocket, not the IRS'.

He's not even trying to stop the practice of selling coordinates, he's just trying to carve out his own special interest where only "outfitters" get to do it.

 

[mntnguide]

If this is a tax issue, let the IRS handle it; not the Outfitters Association's own representative. The only money the bill's author cares about is what goes in his pocket, not the IRS'.

He's not even trying to stop the practice of selling coordinates, he's just trying to carve out his own special interest where only "outfitters" get to do it.

This bill came about last year and the big reason was due to resident hunters.. the people who pay for coordinates are the type who want to seem entirely DIY, but care more about their trophy then the experience. These types would be highly unlikely to hire an outfitter no matter what if this was illegal... when a hunting show or even a wildlife photographer want to go into the forest, take video or pictures, to sell for profit. It is illegal for them to do so without permits and licensing. Therefore it should be no different than someone trying to sell coordinates along with pictures of a scouted animal for profit. It's a business!

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[grizzly]

mntnguide, I couldn't agree more... Its all about business. The reason it was an Outfitter that authored this bill is for business reasons, not some ethical view of Fair Chase... otherwise they wouldn't carve out the outfitter exception. This business philosophy also applies to the NR Wilderness Rule.... its not safety-related.... its to protect themselves and the income they're producing off FEDERAL LAND, that belongs to Non-Residents as much as it belongs to Residents.

This bill is a special interest lobbyist protecting his business, not some greater view of protecting wildlife or wild places.

PS. I agree those selling scouting packages should get permitted under Forest Service commercial photography rules as they are profiting from Federal Lands and public wildlife. My issue isn't with the law, its with another Outfitter carve-out.

 

[ColoradoV]

I disagree that this is all about outfitter welfare as I just dont see that.

Letting everyone and their brother sell scouting packages is a very slippery slope and it has come to the point it needs to be curtailed IMO. Where do you draw the line?? How many ut or greenie plates for that matter selling packages in wyo h&g is too many 2, 10, 20, 50, or 100??

From my understanding resident wyo hunters are who brought this up and were smart enough to ask the help of outfitters. Together they have come up with a workable solution that will be better for everyone except the hunter who does not want to put in the work to find a good buck but still wants the glory of killing one. I mean why not just go buy a old mount and tell everyone you killed it?

Making friends with similar interests and helping each other out is a big difference from sellin x buck, in y basin for z dollars.

I know the time and energy it takes to find a great buck even in the best units in Co. I figure it takes me about 20 days of scouting to find on average 1 200" buck. This year I could not find one to hunt - again I could not find one to hunt so I have ate my tag so far that is the way hunting big bucks goes. That is part of the experience some of us do it for the process and not the product - scouting packages cheapen this experience... Lets call a spade a spade if you have even the name of a basin a big buck is in 85 - 90% of the work is done.... Killing him is the easy part. Everyone is looking for a short cut these days it seems.

The truth is the monstermuly guy did not want to put in the work/time to become a licensed professional guide in Wyoming and has found a slippery loop hole to make himself some money and a way to build his ego as well as further his agenda. All while skirting the rules any other professional has to follow. Or he pays no taxes, has no insurance, and there is no oversight of his "business" - I mean what could go wrong lol! He could have pry kept it going (as this has been going on for years) but he had to throw it in faces of the locals/outfitters that there is nothing they could do to stop him.

Again a good rule change I hope to see more states in the west follow suit.

 

[mntnguide]

I disagree that this is all about outfitter welfare as I just dont see that.

Letting everyone and their brother sell scouting packages is a very slippery slope and it has come to the point it needs to be curtailed IMO. Where do you draw the line?? How many ut or greenie plates for that matter selling packages in wyo h&g is too many 2, 10, 20, 50, or 100??

From my understanding resident wyo hunters are who brought this up and were smart enough to ask the help of outfitters. Together they have come up with a workable solution that will be better for everyone except the hunter who does not want to put in the work to find a good buck but still wants the glory of killing one. I mean why not just go buy a old mount and tell everyone you killed it?

Making friends with similar interests and helping each other out is a big difference from sellin x buck, in y basin for z dollars.

I know the time and energy it takes to find a great buck even in the best units in Co. I figure it takes me about 20 days of scouting to find on average 1 200" buck. This year I could not find one to hunt - again I could not find one to hunt so I have ate my tag so far that is the way hunting big bucks goes. That is part of the experience some of us do it for the process and not the product - scouting packages cheapen this experience... Lets call a spade a spade if you have even the name of a basin a big buck is in 85 - 90% of the work is done.... Killing him is the easy part. Everyone is looking for a short cut these days it seems.

The truth is the monstermuly guy did not want to put in the work/time to become a licensed professional guide in Wyoming and has found a slippery loop hole to make himself some money and a way to build his ego as well as further his agenda. All while skirting the rules any other professional has to follow. Or he pays no taxes, has no insurance, and there is no oversight of his "business" - I mean what could go wrong lol! He could have pry kept it going (as this has been going on for years) but he had to throw it in faces of the locals/outfitters that there is nothing they could do to stop him.

Again a good rule change I hope to see more states in the west follow suit.

Very well said in all regards. This law is not outfitter welfare. The outfitter who sponsored it has nothing to do with hunting Region h and G and is just the sponsor for the bill that has been brought about by DIY hunters. Outfitters in areas where this has been happening will be booked with hunters no matter if this bill passes or not, this law is benefitting resident and diy non-res hunters far more than it is "outfitter welfare" because once again, this practice is not taking money from outfitters.

 

[BuzzH]

Very well said in all regards. This law is not outfitter welfare. The outfitter who sponsored it has nothing to do with hunting Region h and G and is just the sponsor for the bill that has been brought about by DIY hunters. Outfitters in areas where this has been happening will be booked with hunters no matter if this bill passes or not, this law is benefitting resident and diy non-res hunters far more than it is "outfitter welfare" because once again, this practice is not taking money from outfitters.

Sure its outfitter welfare, everybody knows it. Absolutely the region g and h outfitters will be impacted financially if this bill fails. Right now, there's only a handful of scouting services, what happens when there's all of sudden 5-6-10-20 of them? More hunters choose to go the DIY route and less guided hunts are booked. This bill was NOT brought about by DIY hunters.

The reason the bill is getting support from resident hunters is because they want to maintain the integrity and ethics of hunting. We also want to limit the impacts to our wildlife resources via scouting services. We also want to get in front of this kind of thing before there are dozens and dozens of these services offered.

But, make no mistake, outfitters have no problem hosing the DIY resident and non resident hunters every chance they get. Their track record speaks for itself. If not for constant vigilance by various Wyoming hunting groups things would be out of control.

I'm hearing about some real gems from WOGA...stay tuned.

 

[Jdd2035]

With the way outfitters treat the DIY'rs I hope the bill fails. They have become too pretencious and think they own our public lands. Any thing to knock them down is a good thing in my book.

 

[mntnguide]

Sure its outfitter welfare, everybody knows it. Absolutely the region g and h outfitters will be impacted financially if this bill fails. Right now, there's only a handful of scouting services, what happens when there's all of sudden 5-6-10-20 of them? More hunters choose to go the DIY route and less guided hunts are booked. This bill was NOT brought about by DIY hunters.

The reason the bill is getting support from resident hunters is because they want to maintain the integrity and ethics of hunting. We also want to limit the impacts to our wildlife resources via scouting services. We also want to get in front of this kind of thing before there are dozens and dozens of these services offered.

But, make no mistake, outfitters have no problem hosing the DIY resident and non resident hunters every chance they get. Their track record speaks for itself. If not for constant vigilance by various Wyoming hunting groups things would be out of control.

I'm hearing about some real gems from WOGA...stay tuned.

Just remember Buzz..WYOGA represents barely half of the licensed outfitters in the state. They don't speak for all nor do many agree with the direction of WYOGA which is why they don't join. Grouping all outfitters as hating everyone else is like saying all hunters are poachers. The group of guys who are running the Wyoga decisions are some of the most disrespected ones in the outfitting community, but guess what, they are good at politics and that's all it is

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[BuzzH]

Just remember Buzz..WYOGA represents barely half of the licensed outfitters in the state. They don't speak for all nor do many agree with the direction of WYOGA which is why they don't join. Grouping all outfitters as hating everyone else is like saying all hunters are poachers. The group of guys who are running the Wyoga decisions are some of the most disrespected ones in the outfitting community, but guess what, they are good at politics and that's all it is

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Then where are the good half of outfitters that don't agree with WOGA during the Legislative session? Where are they during interim meetings? Where are they at public land rallies? Where are they at the commission meetings?...they aren't there, ever.

If the other outfitters aren't actively opposing some of the crap that WOGA is trying to pass at the commission and legislative level, then they're condoning it. Simple as that.

If outfitters don't like the bum wrap that WOGA is giving them all, then make some changes.

I don't condone poaching or poachers...nor will you see me say nothing when I see it happen, or not push for more stringent fines, etc.

Yet, never a peep from the "good outfitters" while WOGA lobbies for things that you and I both know are damaging to resident and non resident DIY hunters.

Sometimes what is NOT said, is just as important as what is...and actions, or lack there-of, matter.