Typical Colorado

[barberx8]

Just came off another Colorado archery disappointment! Can anyone answer why we continue to support a state which starts its bow season in early September then throws a muzzleloader season right in the middle of it....Then when the elk finally recover the season ends just as the rut starts!!
There is a reason that Colorado has a 3-6% success rate...Could it be that the state of Colorado wants the elk totally undisturbed for the revenue that the rifle hunters bring in the first rifle season..
Bow hunters hunt for the experience....Meaning we understand success rates are low but we love to chase during the rut..
Unless your the primos crew hunting on land that (id like to see old wilber pimos toot the hootchie mama where I hunt LOL then you would see THE TRUTH) is as close to high fence as you can get, that rut experience isn't happening in Colorado or its minimal at best.. Oh yes there is the occasional good hunt but overall the season closes well before the rut and leaves the elk as peaceful as possible for the high dollar out of state rifle hunters. There is no doubt the best rut hunt in Colorado is the $600 plus dollar a piece first rifle tags..
Why a s bow hunters cant we unite and boycott Colorado's unfavorable seasons for the common man bow hunter?

PS I have killed numerous elk in Colorado and am my personal best a 362 and 345..I have also killed numerous whitetails in the 160-200 class. Not bragging just letting you know I speak from a position of knowledge. I have hunted Colorado for 20 years now!

 

[gypsumreaper]

I understand where you are coming from, elk in my area are completely silent but this isn't due to Colorado's season. This is due to the number of guys bugling and educating animals. Trust me I have seen it all to often someone drives their truck or 4 wheeler down the road stops bugles waits a few minutes jumps back in and drives down the road further repeat. But archery licenses cost just as much as rifle licenses. I've been seeing more and more archery hunters over the years. I agree the muzzleloader season right in the middle does kind of suck, but if you think about the unlimited number of either sex archery licenses vs. the number of rifle licenses it's all about herd development. Yes the first season is most likely the tag to have, I archery hunt and hunt 2nd rifle and both seasons are hard. But I wouldn't say that 1st season is the guarantee tag to have. In my area I hunt you can draw a first season tag every 3 years I believe, where I can chase elk archery every single year. I worked for an outfitter though wanna know how many elk we seen archery season that year? We had 5 hunters with encounters with at least 2 of them every day we hunted that week. First rifle we seen 5 elk total, 2nd season we filled 6 for 6 bull tags, 5 for 7 3rd season and 4 cows 4th season. I wouldn't say Colorado's seasons are bad, should they maybe be a little different yes but each unsuccessful hunter In Each season is gonna complain. Archery hunters wish the season was a little later same with smoke poles, 1st season wants it someway, second rifle we usually wish we had a few more days for he snow, 3rd season we wish was slightly earlier. In my opinion I wish the archery tags would go until the end of 1st rifle and would just require blaze orange or camo blaze during the rifle hunt. But also you have to remember that the number of tags is not only for the wildlife but the the amount if hunters in the season, archery is almost impossible to keep hunters to one area since most tags are almost state wide. But if they did that every season you might have 10,000 hunters in one area and 0 in another. My unit there's ton of archery guys but right across the interstate in the other unit hardly any elk hunters unless they draw a deer tag for that unit and go for both. It was a very very tough year I seen 1 bull in the 2 weeks I hunted. And that bull was Sunday morning and I called him in but he hung up 50 yards from me.... In the oak brush at 7000 feet. I was looking for bear with my dad. My areas I get I to elk every year didn't even have tracks it's tough. But when did hunting go from memories and being in the wilderness to having to fill a tag every single year? It's tough I haven't ever killed a bull had my chances an failed but I look at it as the next season will be better. If everyone boycotts Colorado hunting then ok have fun I'll be out there hunting and will not participate. I did say the same thing this year though I would have loved to have some of the big guys in there with me this year with all the miles I hiked and disappointment, not only to say see it can be tough but also so I coulda learned some of the things they know to help me. I've hunted this area for 18 years and this was the worst I've ever seen it and even older people I know said the same. Some years the bulls rut hard the 3rd week of archery right in smoke like season, some years I've had them goin nuts the first week, and sometimes I've had them going nuts 2nd season. The bugling has become almost non existent in my area but that in my opinion is elk adapting and learning from us. If you think the first season is the way to go draw a tag and remember you can always carry a bow during rifle season, I did it for 2nd season last year.


If you get meat from the store then dont criticize me for having the courage to go out and kill my own meat

 

[Kodiak32]

Why I share the frustration over the muzzleloader season dates, I have to say a month long archery season is pretty long and fairly standard for the western states. Look at Utah where archery starts mid-August and ends mid-September. Those dates are definitely not desirable for the rut. Are the dates in CO favorable to the rut, it depends on the year. Can a successful elk hunt be had every year or at least the opportunity, yes. At the end of the day if you that strongly disagree with the hunt offered take your hunt and money elsewhere. Again, I too have had many frustrating seasons but if you got out and had fun with friends and family that's what really matters. Good luck on the next one!

 

[Colorado Cowboy]

Barber....I have a question for you....Do you think archery should be the only hunters allowed to hunt during the rut? Everyone who buys a tag here should have an equal chance to hunt. The way they do it here is to space the seasons out and let the hunter choose . Keeps the numbers in the field at any one time spaced out.

I happen to be a M/L hunter and really kind of object to sharing our season with archers. They get to wear full camo and we have to wear all that orange. Why.....so archers can see us and we can't see them!! LOL

Actually I think G & F has done a pretty good job. My comment is if you don't like it here, well there are other states to archery hunt elk. Bad thing is most don't have otc tags. So if you hunt here, be grateful you can just buy a tag with no drawing needed...in most cases.

 

[jjenness]

I think this is totally a point of view dilemma. Trust me, I hunt in MT where we have some of the most liberal seasons in the lower 48, and even here where archery season runs from the first week of Sept. to the end of Oct. there are plenty if gun guys out there who don't think its fair that they don't get to hunt the rut. For me it's great bc I am an archery hunter, but I can see why some outdoorsman are grumpy about the season dates. Oh and just FYI there aren't many elk in MT and the rut sucks every year, just sayin.

 

[CrossCreeks]

Game management for a state is tough ! Speaking as a person who has to travel out west to hunt Colorado and Wyoming I think both states do a fairly decent job of managing big game and managing the hunters as well. Obviously the higher numbers of hunters allowed the lower the success rates. I love to bow hunt as well as muzz and rifle. Overlapping seasons causes problems and I do not like those type hunts and I do sympathize with other hunters. We all pay to hunt and like to feel we get our money's worth regardless of what we harvest.

 

[Cobbhunts]

This is an age old battle in many states. Same here in KY...archery hunters want it this way, and the rifle hunters want it that way. Heck, the Sportsmen in this KY were in such heated battles over the Crossbow legalization several years ago that it almost broke us apart. There is still a lot of resentment to this day.

I understand where the OP is coming from. But at the same time....it is what it is and I don't think a complete boycott would 1.) Ever happen...or 2.) Change the dates to what you want them to be anyway. The rifle hunters WAY outnumber us bowhunters. I think the most efficient way for you to get a proposed change to be even considered, is to go through a group that will draft the proposed changes and concerns and then present them to the states (in your case CO) Wildlife Department. Otherwise take the opportunities that are given to you and try to make the best of them. Best of luck....

 

[packmule]

I don't really see much wrong with the elk season dates, except would prefer cow tags not be spread amongst seasons to get them off habitat quicker. I have more of an issue with the MD seasons since there are very few true rut hunts in the state.

 

[In God We Trust]

If you have more "true rut hunts" with firearms then success rates are higher and the DOW gives out fewer tags. Also more mature animals are killed. Colorado does it right by not having more mule deer hunts in the peak of the rut. If you want a stable mule deer population you cant hand out a lot of buck tags during the rut. If you do that a lot of the mature bucks are harvested and then genetics in a heard suffer over time because 2 and 3 year old bucks breed the does. Of course everyone wants a 4th season rifle tag so they can shoot a 180" + buck but the reality is there are a lot less 180" mule deer then there are hunters who want to shoot one. Colorado does a great job managing mule deer and if you disagree look in the B & C book entries over the last 10 years!
As far as elk goes the 1st rifle season isn't a 100% guarantee to shoot a huge bull. I have hunted all of the seasons over the years in Colorado and I have had more opportunities to kill mature bulls during the archery/ muzzle-loader seasons or the 3rd and 4th rifle seasons. The first two rifle seasons are usually the hardest seasons to find mature bulls because the rut is winding down or over. Also the weather is mild so the bulls hang in the dark timber to bed and come out at night to eat in the pocket meadows.
I hunt both archery and muzzle-loader seasons and I do agree with you that it is a bummer an archer has to share the woods with gun hunters. I would like to see the archery season start the same time as it does now and run for 3 weeks. Then close it for a week so the muzzle-loader guys can hunt. After the week long muzzle-loader season ends open up the archery season again until the first rifle seasons start.
The DOW will never make everyone happy and I have plenty of things I disagree with but I feel the overall season structure is pretty good here in Colorado considering they are able to keep the herd numbers up and provide OTC tags.

 

[packmule]

If you have more "true rut hunts" with firearms then success rates are higher and the DOW gives out fewer tags. Also more mature animals are killed. Colorado does it right by not having more mule deer hunts in the peak of the rut. If you want a stable mule deer population you cant hand out a lot of buck tags during the rut. If you do that a lot of the mature bucks are harvested and then genetics in a heard suffer over time because 2 and 3 year old bucks breed the does. Of course everyone wants a 4th season rifle tag so they can shoot a 180" + buck but the reality is there are a lot less 180" mule deer then there are hunters who want to shoot one. Colorado does a great job managing mule deer and if you disagree look in the B & C book entries over the last 10 years!

I look at the 4th seasons getting cut because of population issues over B&C entries as well as people complaining about gov tag bucks getting killed enough to alter tag dates indicating they aren't seeing the overall quality they'd like if those few deer make a dent. The goal should be to kill mature bucks with the minimum amount of tags issued to actually meet the desired quota. The genetics aren't changing and 2/3yos (even fawns, yearlings & does) are carrying the same genetics as those mature deer that are actually breeding less than middle-aged bucks. The only way to alter those genetics would be to kill everything and reintroduce from elsewhere. Rut offers the best chance to actually view mature bucks and make good decisions on what should get shot vs high grading the younger age classes during the earlier seasons while the mature bucks aren't as visible. The does, carrying 50% of the genetics, will get bred regardless.

 

[flatlandfreddy]

Regardless of season - if you want to see animals reduce the number of females killed, if you want to kill horns, kill as many females as possible without decimating the herd. I dont think that there is a winner in any of it. I can promise you that the unit I just hunted wasnt hurt by muzzies or archers and most of the animals were left for gun season. I have personally witnessed a well educated group of hunters go from we want to kill trophies to killing one trophy amongst them to we want to see animals in the course of about 6-8 years. Colorado puts a lot of effort into the product that they are selling regarding licenses and information that they provide to hunters. I might have a different opinion as an archer if I had seen a muzzie hunter - I saw some hunters but they were all in their trucks riding the roads. I think that as large as the state is you can probably find some places where you can have the season all to yourself regardless of what weapon you use.

 

[In God We Trust]

Packmule, if you issue more 4th season tags then you have to cut tag numbers because the success rate goes way up. That would mean that tags are cut and the DOW has to raise the price of a deer tag because they are selling less. You also end up with a bunch of big bucks being killed the first few years and then you are worse off then before because a majority of the mature deer are gone. Then the seasons after that people start to shoot younger deer every 4th season and fewer bucks will reach maturity. I guess by your thinking Colorado should have more rifle hunts for bulls in September because we could kill bigger bulls. Also your argument that 2 and 3 year old buck breeding does carry the same genetics is half true. If an area does not hold enough mature bucks to breed the does then bucks with inferior genetics end up breeding the does. This will affect deer genetics over the long haul. If you look at deer management in your state on high fence areas they want mature bucks breeding does not 3 year old bucks.

 

[Musket Man]

OTC hunts have to have low success rates and be at times that are a disadvantage to the hunter or tomany animals would get killed to maintain numbers and they couldnt have OTC hunts.

 

[xtreme]

We had our worst season this year. The bulls were bugling in our area, I could hear them from my front porch. It is a half mile to the top of the mountain an a hard climb, this was probably my last time to climb to where the bulls were bugling. Five guys hunting and two cows tagged, lots of close calls. Cost of tags is a real concern for me.
Like everyone, other hunters caused plans to change. We had scouted a bull that I thought to be vulnerable. When I get to where I planned to park the Jeep, there were wall tents and other tents and ten autos. Later I herd one of those hunters say on the radio,"I just missed a bull at thirty yards". There were many more archery hunters than ever before, lucky for our group they haven't all figured out how to hunt successfully so if they are going to be there we try to let them help.

 

[packmule]

Packmule, if you issue more 4th season tags then you have to cut tag numbers because the success rate goes way up. That would mean that tags are cut and the DOW has to raise the price of a deer tag because they are selling less. You also end up with a bunch of big bucks being killed the first few years and then you are worse off then before because a majority of the mature deer are gone. Then the seasons after that people start to shoot younger deer every 4th season and fewer bucks will reach maturity. I guess by your thinking Colorado should have more rifle hunts for bulls in September because we could kill bigger bulls. Also your argument that 2 and 3 year old buck breeding does carry the same genetics is half true. If an area does not hold enough mature bucks to breed the does then bucks with inferior genetics end up breeding the does. This will affect deer genetics over the long haul. If you look at deer management in your state on high fence areas they want mature bucks breeding does not 3 year old bucks.

The majority of mature deer shouldn't be gone because the next age class bumps up to fill that category. Of course, tag numbers would need to be altered based on past fawn crops for those given years. By shooting mature deer you've given them plenty of breeding opportunity. You cannot keep any particular age class of deer from breeding unless you have the control of a breeding pen and there's absolutely no way you can replicate breeder pen results on free ranging animals. Some units lacking 4th seasons are basically 100% rifle units anyway with tag allotments for 2nd and 3rd increasing while still no 4th season.

What's on top of a deer's head has little to do with its ability to breed and a 3yo buck that scores 160" is not inferior to a mature deer that scores 180". A deer has the same genetics from the second it hits the ground until it dies of old age regardless of what it is allowed to express based on nutrition and age.

That is also not true of HF places in our state, under that controlled scenario the mature bucks have already done their breeding and theoretically the younger age classes (does & bucks) should be the carriers of better genetics after extensive culling efforts, so that's what they would prefer to breed. You'll also see the trend of killing off the mature does so the younger does are the only ones being bred and caring for a single healthy fawn instead of twins. You will also find places that have had large fawn crops one year and turn around and kill every fawn born the following year to continue to have room for the previous fawn crop. It's also important to note that every mature deer at one point was one of those young "inferior" deer, which goes back to the point that it's really not affecting genetics by them breeding. Also genetic testing studies done on fetuses behind HF indicated that the middle aged bucks do breed more than the mature bucks, so those guys better be content with 3yos breeding. Those results also indicate why the yearling-3yo bucks are more susceptible to post rut mortality because they're too wrapped up in trying to breed to fuel their bodies when nutrition is still going towards their skeletal structure. That's another reason to leave those deer alone bc only a certain percentage of them will ever see maturity so no reason to further cut into them.

As far as tag prices, draw, etc, I look at what's best for the animals and how best to manage them, not how best to manage people and that's basically what the majority of revenue is going towards. I'm the same way with the deer I manage here, I set quotas, a few rules to ensure the right animals are making up those quotas (not real picky on does, just want the mouths gone, the earlier the better) and that's the extent of me managing people. One thing for sure though is that the private sector management and research is way ahead of the state's and would surprised to know the mule deer management and research in West Texas & the Panhandle leans towards the free range whitetail management philosophy being well suited for mule deer as well.


I'm really not much of an elk person and it took me a while of going to different places to realize people use them as a cheap supplement for expensive beef. Since I'm a deer person, rifle rut hunts for elk would help cut into the elk numbers that directly compete with mule deer for resources. There's no such thing as balance when it comes to competing species.

 

[swampokie]

362 bulls and 200 inch whitetails have to be at least a little consolation for the pain of your disappointing hunt. Just sayin.

Just came off another Colorado archery disappointment! Can anyone answer why we continue to support a state which starts its bow season in early September then throws a muzzleloader season right in the middle of it....Then when the elk finally recover the season ends just as the rut starts!!
There is a reason that Colorado has a 3-6% success rate...Could it be that the state of Colorado wants the elk totally undisturbed for the revenue that the rifle hunters bring in the first rifle season..
Bow hunters hunt for the experience....Meaning we understand success rates are low but we love to chase during the rut..
Unless your the primos crew hunting on land that (id like to see old wilber pimos toot the hootchie mama where I hunt LOL then you would see THE TRUTH) is as close to high fence as you can get, that rut experience isn't happening in Colorado or its minimal at best.. Oh yes there is the occasional good hunt but overall the season closes well before the rut and leaves the elk as peaceful as possible for the high dollar out of state rifle hunters. There is no doubt the best rut hunt in Colorado is the $600 plus dollar a piece first rifle tags..
Why a s bow hunters cant we unite and boycott Colorado's unfavorable seasons for the common man bow hunter?

PS I have killed numerous elk in Colorado and am my personal best a 362 and 345..I have also killed numerous whitetails in the 160-200 class. Not bragging just letting you know I speak from a position of knowledge. I have hunted Colorado for 20 years now!