Wyoming genes

[Ridgerunner]

I'm wondering if certain parts of the state have better genes for big cutters? With six points going into the draw in 17 I want to use them wisely. Although I'd love to kill a huge buck, if I could find one with big cutters that would be sweet even if it was only a mid 70's type buck.


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[Hilltop]

I have seen antelope with big cutters all over the state. I think age plays a huge role- find an area limited enough to allow bucks to get old and you will find big cutters.

 

[wy-tex]

Wait and see how the winter fares. Forage about mid may will decide how much mass, cutters, they will grow. Horn growth starts during winter and by may or so the prongs start emerging.

 

[Tim McCoy]

Antelope often grow their biggest horns when relatively young, 2 1/2 - 3 1/2 years old, at least according to this AZ study.

http://www.azantelope.org/Facts___Research/Horn_Growth_Study/horn_growth_study.html

So if you have favorable winter conditions, are OK with mid-70's ( which is a very nice Billy IMO ), you may want to look for a unit where tag #'s have been on the rise vs 2-4 years ago, and hunt it after the first few weeks hunting rush is over. Odds are there should be good numbers of large horned younger bucks to hunt.

 

[BuzzH]

All the B&C bucks my wife and I have killed in Wyoming have been 4+ years old.

I don't think that AZ study jives with Wyoming. I'm sure there are some exceptionally good genetic bucks that make 80 by 2-3, but not many in my experience.

The best younger buck that I've taken...was 78 and change and was 2.5 years old.

As to the OP's question, I've shot pronghorn with good prongs in several units across the state. I haven't seen any area where I've noticed more with good prongs over another area. Just takes a lot of sorting to find whatever you're after, length, prongs, mass. The biggest challenge is finding one that has it all.

 

[Hilltop]

Antelope often grow their biggest horns when relatively young, 2 1/2 - 3 1/2 years old, at least according to this AZ study.

http://www.azantelope.org/Facts___Research/Horn_Growth_Study/horn_growth_study.html

So if you have favorable winter conditions, are OK with mid-70's ( which is a very nice Billy IMO ), you may want to look for a unit where tag #'s have been on the rise vs 2-4 years ago, and hunt it after the first few weeks hunting rush is over. Odds are there should be good numbers of large horned younger bucks to hunt.

Quoted from the study you attached- "Horn sheaths of animals at least 7 years old were significantly smaller than those of animals aged 2 to 6. At least some animals attained large horn sheaths at an early age (2 to 3 yrs). " They are saying that some of the antelope in the study got large horns by 3 but that doesn't mean the majority do. I refer to age above like most of us do for deer 4+ years old. Like many horned or antlered animals, size will decrease as the animal starts to get very old (7+ years is an old age for many wild ungulates).

I stand by my point but will be more specific - Find an area full of 4-5 year old antelope and you will find many with large horns, including large cutters.

 

[BuzzH]

I stand by my point but will be more specific - Find an area full of 4-5 year old antelope and you will find A FEW with large horns, including large cutters.

Fixed it for you. I agree on the age bracket of 4-6 is where a person needs to be looking for a buck that's reached it potential in Wyoming.

 

[Tim McCoy]

Messed up, was actually NM. I'm not sure if it applies to WY or not guys, but I do think it may very well have some applicability. Another and probably better way to look at the study suggests pretty similar avg. B&C size for all intents and purposes from age 2/3 till about 8, then a drop off. But harder WY winters may change the age, by a year or so I suppose, so maybe inserting age 3/4 for WY makes sense. Would really like to see a similar study from WY. Be fun to know for sure.

I do know my son took one, on a youth hunt, that was aged with a tooth by ODFW at 8 1/2, the rancher had pictures from age 3 on. When younger he was a huge very heavy B&C OR goat. I'd guess if he was that huge at 2, they would gave taken a picture too, which suggests he did not pop till age 3. He was closely watched by the local ODFW biologist and the locals, we were told if we took him they wanted a tooth. There are very few antelope in this particular area, so it was easy for the rancher & biologist to keep track I guess. He started to go down some at 7, at 8 when we took him, he was all mass, no prongs and under 14", still officially scored 74" with no prongs and that length, he made a big and unique trophy. Am guessing he lost 10-12" in score and 1 1/2" - 2" in length from age 6 till harvest, based on his known age at death, and when the pictures were taken, he was clearly huge at age 3 - 6, very big at 7, and scored much less at 8. But that's just one example and may very well be an anomaly.

 

[wy-tex]

Available forage and nutrition will decide it they have decent mass and prongs. Genetics certainly plays a role but without proper nutrition all of their energy will go into body mass not horn growth. Drought years affect length and/ or mass and prongs. We've noticed the drought will affect mass and prongs in some animals, good length but no mass or prongs, while others will have short stubby horns with decent mass. That seems to be where the genetics comes in, which way will the forage affect horn growth. I would look to genetics in certain areas if you are looking for something non typical. Those genes seem to certainly stay in specific herds. Wait til after spring green up then check with Biologist for range conditions. We base our tag applications on the herd conditions as well as the unit location and access.

 

[BuzzH]

Genetics play the biggest role...period.

If it was all about range conditions, then why do certain counties produce a disproportionate amount of the B&C pronghorn entries in nearly every State?

Range conditions are the most over-embellished piece of the puzzle to finding a B&C pronghorn. Does it play a role? Absolutely, but a small role, IMO.

There are simply a vast, vast, majority of pronghorn, that no matter how good the range conditions are, no matter how mild the winters are, or how old they get...they aren't ever going to make an 80 inch pronghorn. I would guess well over 99% of the bucks will never get there.

The 28th recording period (2010-2012), there were 140ish Wyoming entries so, less than 50 a year. That sounds like a lot but considering that there were 31,653 bucks killed in 2010, 29,705 in 2011, and 27,264 in 2012...not many got to 80.

So, out of 88,622 only 140 entries from Wyoming .15% of pronghorn killed in Wyoming are B&C bucks (entered) or roughly 1 buck out of every 630 killed make an 80" net buck. Of course there are B&C bucks killed that aren't entered, but even doubling the amount entered, still way less than .5% of the bucks killed are B&C class pronghorn.

B&C sized pronghorn bucks in Wyoming are a rare bird...

 

[Hilltop]

BuzzH, I understand your point but the OP wasn't asking for B&C, but rather good cutters or prongs. I consider any buck making pope and young "big". A B&C buck is rare and considered HUGE. It is my belief that a good percentage of bucks will grow into the mid 70s if allowed to get to 4.5 years old. A mid 70s buck is "big" to the majority of those that pursue antelope. My point being that all areas of the state can regularly produce bucks in this size class.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Some good discussion here. I've hunted Wyoming twice for lopes in the last six years (10 and 15). Same unit, one that was not affected by the big winterkill. In 10 I killed a buck that went 78, had decent prongs but not huge. Hunted the same unit in 15 and bought into the hype that it was going to be a great year for horn growth, no dice I couldn't find a buck that was close to the size of the one I had shot previously. This was in one of the better counties in Wyoming. Can't wait to go back to chase more antelope but was a little disappointed at what I saw in 15. That's why I'm seeing if perhaps another part of the state might be better.


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[BuzzH]

BuzzH, I understand your point but the OP wasn't asking for B&C, but rather good cutters or prongs. I consider any buck making pope and young "big". A B&C buck is rare and considered HUGE. It is my belief that a good percentage of bucks will grow into the mid 70s if allowed to get to 4.5 years old. A mid 70s buck is "big" to the majority of those that pursue antelope. My point being that all areas of the state can regularly produce bucks in this size class.

I think that's pretty accurate.

 

[Tim McCoy]

Some perspective on scores, using mule deer, as that is what I am most familiar with, vis-a-vis antelope. A mid 70's antelope (75") is equivalent to about a 174" muley, using their respective B&C all time entry scores (82/190 Typical ), as the comparison point. Talking gross, as I am a nets are for fish guy. Looked at that way, IMO, makes 75" goat a pretty nice Billy. There are plenty of 160" muleys getting mounted, and in many areas that is a very good buck, which is equivalent to about a 69" antelope using the B&C score basis for comparison.

 

[HiMtnHnter]

B&C - sized bucks are more likely to have big prongs, so hunting an area that produces the most B&C animals will likely result in the chance to see more critters with long prongs.

Don't overlook the ground shrinkage phenomenon when it comes to long prongs. Skinny bucks with decent prongs can appear to the more casual observer to have great big prongs, when in actuality they are just a 5" prong.

Conversely, big massive bucks with big bodies and heads can have a long 6" prong but are often overlooked because the hunter doesn't know what they are looking at.

 

[Bonecollector]

Nets are for fishing!
I like that Tim!

 

[wy-tex]

I'm not saying genetics doesn't play a part, but after watching the same antelope herds for 29 years I have definitely seen a difference in horn growth over the years depending on range conditions. So to say nutrition does not affect the horn size, IMO, is a stretch. I have not seen any studies on horn growth with nutritional manipulation but have on antlers, and nutrition was proven to affect antler growth. I just don't believe that horn growth is the same on good and bad years, nutrition wise. That being said a buck with great genetics will produce better than average horn growth on "bad" years. If you can find an area that has a propensity for large prongs then hunt it if that's what you are looking for. Just look over lots of bucks before you pull the trigger.

 

[hoshour]

Antelope often grow their biggest horns when relatively young, 2 1/2 - 3 1/2 years old, at least according to this AZ study.

http://www.azantelope.org/Facts___Research/Horn_Growth_Study/horn_growth_study.html

So if you have favorable winter conditions, are OK with mid-70's ( which is a very nice Billy IMO ), you may want to look for a unit where tag #'s have been on the rise vs 2-4 years ago, and hunt it after the first few weeks hunting rush is over. Odds are there should be good numbers of large horned younger bucks to hunt.

That was my plan this year so I hunted the last week of the season and the antelope were still skittish in most areas. Pressure was low the last week but they had not relaxed from the presssure from three weeks earlier. It was a huge difference from when I scouted in July

 

[hoshour]

I'm not saying genetics doesn't play a part, but after watching the same antelope herds for 29 years I have definitely seen a difference in horn growth over the years depending on range conditions. So to say nutrition does not affect the horn size, IMO, is a stretch. I have not seen any studies on horn growth with nutritional manipulation but have on antlers, and nutrition was proven to affect antler growth. I just don't believe that horn growth is the same on good and bad years, nutrition wise. That being said a buck with great genetics will produce better than average horn growth on "bad" years. If you can find an area that has a propensity for large prongs then hunt it if that's what you are looking for. Just look over lots of bucks before you pull the trigger.

Agreed. Food quality absolutely affects horn and antler growth. That said, some areas in a bad year can still have decent bucks if they have local water sources to green up the feed.

 

[wy-tex]

Agreed hoshour. Water can be the key. Any unit with good numbers will hold some good bucks just have to look for them. Still seeing some bucks with their sheaths still on but most have dropped. Just wondering how B&C scores the bucks that don't drop their previous horn sheaths. Those bucks can have very interesting horns with one over the other. Do you have to try and remove the older horn sheath to score it?