Ultra Long Range Shooting/Hunting

[Colorado Cowboy]

I know this has been discussed at length previously, but I need to vent a little about my concerns on a TV program I watched this week (It was NOT Best of the West). It was elk hunting in Wyoming by a young teen with his Dad who is the show host. This was the boy's first elk hunt. He shot a nice bull at 1473 +/- yards. I think this really sets a bad example for other young/novice hunters. My Dad spent years teaching me the basics of big game hunting. He taught me about ethics, stalking skills and yes he stressed still hunting (ya hear this Old Hunter). Not every novice hunter has the luxury of a VERY expensive rifle, optics and ammunition used in this program. IMHO this type of a program that stresses ultra long range shooting encourages real problems with hunter ethics. I can visualize wounded and lost animals that these shows don't show or even mention.

Sorry about my rant, but this just makes me wonder where our passion for hunting is going. I used to watch and comment on a long range forum, but just got tired of all the junk I saw on it. Sure we have equipment that enables us to shoot at this range, but is it right. Sure ain't for me!!!

 

[packmule]

I think if you throw a novice out there with a regular joe rig, the person next to the shooter will have come closer to the bullet than an elk at 1500yds.

 

[MacDonald]

No, CC; I don't think this is in any way a rant: I"m right with you on this. 1400yards. Why not just call down an air strike? That is irresponsibility being showcased on TV. It does two things I don't like. First, it demonstrates you have NO need for any woodcraft skills, stalking, thinking about wind, and so forth. Second, at those distances, there's no thrill of the hunt involved. It's just "walk out until you see the one you want, and shoot it". It's the pedestrian version of a canned hunt, IMHO. I also say this as a former sniper, but... took a 6pt bull in Idaho coming up on 3 years ago. I could have shot him at 1200 yards, but there's no challenge in that; took the shot at about 85 yards. Close enough to smell him, hear him breathe his last breath in the frosty stillness. Here's the difference for me: at extreme distances it's like a video game, there's no visceral impact of your shot. You're disconnected from the act of actually taking another life. Participating fully in the life-and death-of the forest and it's creatures is what connects me to reality; I'm a part of it, not a tourist.

 

[Old Hunter]

I've said it so many times i'm sure you guys hate me. Long range killing is not hunting. It's just shooting, and about as exciting as hitting a paper target.

The kid will be a great sniper in the military, but if that's all he knows. He has a long way to go to becoming a hunter.

 

[Ikeepitcold]

Guys. Keep this mellow. I've already shut down posts with this topic. Most guys are very passionate about this and ethics is always up for debate. I'll let this ride but I will be watching it closely. Please keep your posts respectful and understand these are opinions and we all have the rite to them.

Thanks

 

[25contender]

If a Elk is over 35 yds its long range for me!! 90% of the hunt is getting close enough to smell them if you ask me. To me that would be like shooting a elk with a bow at 100yds. Is it right?

 

[MacDonald]

My question is if this really goes beyond ethics? When I'm talking with folks, and they learn that I hunt, sometimes i get the "EWWWW" response. I explain why we have two verbs, and many use them without thinking of the meaning. I "hunt" for my car keys in the same way i "hunt" for deer & elk-searching for them: that's separate from killing. As a bowhunter, I may choose not to take a shot, and it wouldn't be a first. In fact, my most memorable hunt, for mulies down in CA, I didn't release my arrow. Had an immense 4pt snorting and blowing not 10 feet from me, hidden by a big bush. The wind was in my favor, but he knew something was wrong. He finally bolted, and stopped at about 20 yards broadside, while I held at full draw. I had him, no question, and he knew it! I backed down and he went on his way. Most incredible hunt I've ever had, no question!! And I didn't kill a thing.

 

[Colorado Cowboy]

Guys. Keep this mellow. I've already shut down posts with this topic. Most guys are very passionate about this and ethics is always up for debate. I'll let this ride but I will be watching it closely. Please keep your posts respectful and understand these are opinions and we all have the rite to them.

Thanks

I know, but this was just over the top for me. I remember a couple of years ago on this forum a guy hunting antelope. He actually extended his shot to some range (if I remember about 1000) when he could have made the shot at less than 500. A firestorm erupted and I think he was booted off the forum. I've been thinking about this for several days and finally decided to let off a little steam! Sorry.

 

[Elkoholic307]

Actually it was more like 150 yards. The buck was standing right next to the road but we drove on by and set up at 1000.

 

[Colorado Cowboy]

If I remember correctly, it wasn't what he did or how he made the shot, it was an issue of civility.

 

[Bitterroot Bulls]

Maybe we could try to find common ground among hunters and not try to alienate others with our own standards. There is no difference in this argument compared to the bow vs. rifle vs. muzzy. Traditional vs. Compound or any of the other hunter vs. hunter "I am better, tougher, cooler, more ethical, smarter, etc. than you" arguments that spread malcontent and division among hunters. Hunters should be coming together, not dividing.

If you don't want to shoot long range, don't. If you don't want to hunt with a rifle, bow, spear, whatever ... don't. That kill was longer than any I have had, or will ever have. Still, it was legal, and I hope he enjoyed the experience, even if others wouldn't. It makes me kind of sad for a kid to make his first kill and be armchair quarterbacked and called unethical by people I respect because he "could" have made a bad shot and wounded an animal.

I actually made a bad shot myself on my first buck. I rushed my shot and gutshot him at about 60 yards. After a long track job and a finishing shot I was elated with my first trophy.

The ranges I shoot in the woods are mine. I am confident in them and will not take a shot outside of my ability. I wouldn't put my limits on somebody else, and I wouldn't want their limits put on me.

IKIC, you know I don't like these threads, and typically stay out, but this is how I feel. We will see how the thread goes from here.

 

[WapitiBob]

I use WY for my rifle Antelope fix every year. My last 5 have all been over 300 yards. Not because I wanted to but because that's as close as I could get. Range time and hand loads made those shots so easy it was basically cheating. That's not the case for everybody though. I have no problem with long shots and for me, anything out to 600 is going to die.
I think part of what upsets people isn't the distance of the shot, it's that some go out of their way to increase that distance. I, like many, were simply taught to get as close as we could, and it stays with us. It's what you do and you don't think twice about it. When the day comes that I simply plop down and shoot or drive past so I can extend the distance, the shot is then the focus and that stays at the range.

 

[Old Hunter]

Maybe we could try to find common ground among hunters and not try to alienate others with our own standards. There is no difference in this argument compared to the bow vs. rifle vs. muzzy. Traditional vs. Compound or any of the other hunter vs. hunter "I am better, tougher, cooler, more ethical, smarter, etc. than you" arguments that spread malcontent and division among hunters. Hunters should be coming together, not dividing.

If you don't want to shoot long range, don't. If you don't want to hunt with a rifle, bow, spear, whatever ... don't. That kill was longer than any I have had, or will ever have. Still, it was legal, and I hope he enjoyed the experience, even if others wouldn't. It makes me kind of sad for a kid to make his first kill and be armchair quarterbacked and called unethical by people I respect because he "could" have made a bad shot and wounded an animal.

I actually made a bad shot myself on my first buck. I rushed my shot and gutshot him at about 60 yards. After a long track job and a finishing shot I was elated with my first trophy.

The ranges I shoot in the woods are mine. I am confident in them and will not take a shot outside of my ability. I wouldn't put my limits on somebody else, and I wouldn't want their limits put on me.

IKIC, you know I don't like these threads, and typically stay out, but this is how I feel. We will see how the thread goes from here.

You're completely free to feel as you do. As we all are. I actually love that there's hunters who take long shots. Otherwise the timber where I hunt would be crowded with hunters. So, even things we don't agree with have a positive side.

 

[packmule]

You can stretch out a rifle in the woods if there's a lot of elevation changes

 

[Muleys 24/7]

I hunt archery, muzzleloader soon and rifle. There is "no" one way to hunt for me. If someone can pull it off with whatever choice or style they plan on doing it, than more power to them! It's not my place to tell someone what is right in how they pursue or hunt "their" game with "their" tag.

I live in a state where we have people dictating all the time in what they think is right for hunting and firearms. Like BB said we all need to stick together as a community.JMO

 

[Musket Man]

What bothers me about a shot like that on a hunting show is I believe they are mostly doing it for show and trying to impress people watching.

 

[Colorado Cowboy]

Maybe I didn't articulate my point very well in my initial post. By showing a very youthful hunter shooting his first bull elk at the range that it was shot at, gives the impression that anyone can do it. I think it sets a bad example for other novice hunters. I can imagine my son at that age watching this show and saying to me Dad I can do that, lets go. It just seemed to easy.

 

[hardstalk]

I was going to stay out of it...I changed my mind. I like to find ways to relate these kind of debates on a larger spectrum.

1. When the young caveman threw the first stone to kill an animal did the elder caveman judge him as unethical for not using bare hands?

2. Couple eons later when the first neanderthal used a stick and string to project another stick with forward momentum did all the rockchuckers judge him as unethical?

3. When cowboys came along and used gunpowder and chunks of metals to lob shrapnel into animals bodies did the indians judge them for being unethical?

Point I am making is its pretty much inevitable for humans to go push the limits in any circumstance. This one pertains to hunting. If you grew up with computers in the classroom and ballistic load data at your fingertips along with chrono #'s on any given weapon or bullet size you could possibly imagine I am unfortunately pressed to believe even you would want to tinker. Want to go further, faster. Thats what humans do. And thank god that we have the option in america to do these things. Dont judge a person for something you dont agree with. Judge never ending technology and ground breaking science. Kid or no kid. Animal or no animal. He shot 1400+ yards and hit the mark. Thats amazing if you remove emotion from the subject. Im excited and fully embrace the future of technology. Unfortunately its not always welcomed.

Ill quote luis ck on this.

'I had to sit on the runway for 40 minutes.' Oh my god, really? What happened then, did you fly through the air like a bird, incredibly? Did you soar into the clouds, impossibly? Did you partake in the miracle of human flight and then land softly on giant tires that you couldn't even conceive how they f**king put air in them?...You're sitting in a chair in the sky. You're like a Greek myth right now.

I know its not a hunting quote. But it shows how people disregard the amazement we see on a daily basis.

 

[ando_31]

These threads aren't all bad. This one has enlightened me on a few different point of views I wouldn't have otherwise thought of myself.

That's a pretty interesting way to think of it hardstalk. I wouldn't get a thrill or be proud of myself for killing an animal at anything over 400 yards (I would prefer 30 yards or less to get my heart pumping), but I do push the limits in other aspects of my life and I don't want people giving me grief over it. Personally I feel the same as coloradocowboy on the subject, but I guess all we can do is raise our own children the way we think they aught to be.

 

[Elkoholic307]

Maybe I didn't articulate my point very well in my initial post. By showing a very youthful hunter shooting his first bull elk at the range that it was shot at, gives the impression that anyone can do it.

I couldn't disagree more. If I remember that episode right, Aaron clearly said that his kids practice shooting 1,000 yards fairly often. How is that giving the impression that anyone can do it? I only know a couple guys that regularly shoot that far. Also, when that kid has guys like Mike and Aaron Davidson teaching him, you better believe he's getting some good range time in. He put his time in and made an excellent shot on that bull. He earned it. That's more than I can say about most adult hunters who literally dust off their rifles the evening before opening day.