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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimP View Post
    Here is what they came up with for migrating wolfs.

    https://cpw.state.co.us/Documents/Wi...ch=wolf%20plan

    Here is a lot more reading

    https://cpw.state.co.us/Documents/Wi...ch=wolf%20plan


    Not saying if any of it will be actually implemented or changed but some kind of plan is in place.
    Thanks for the links Jim. This is the way I read it and please correct me if I’m wrong:

    The 2016 update is the CPW basically stating they don’t have the money to introduce wolves and will have even less money if the wolves eat the deer and elk which is they’re bread and butter in license sales. They also bring up a great point of these wildlife advocate groups love and want these megafauna on the landscape but historically haven’t offered to foot the bill on reintroduction, they will only throw a proverbial wrench in a functioning system.

    The 2004 “original” and in my eyes outdated plan doesn’t sound too much different than what was put forth during the GYE wolf reintroduction in the ‘90’s. I am not versed on this subject as much as I should be but I know that there has been a ton of back and forth litigation on recovery numbers being met and lawsuits tying up courts and essentially costing taxpayers exorbitant amounts of money to delay delisting.
    It has been said before but if there is a chance of this thing going through the writing is on the wall and the state better get they’re crap together and come up with something better than we don’t have the money!
    I love wildlife and wild places just as much as my other fellow hunters here and would love to see a varied and balanced ecosystem. However with as fragile as our elk and especially deer herds are due to many factors including habitat loss and human recreation encroachment, I fear wolves may be the straw that breaks the camels back and don’t like the thought of our future with the romantic feelings that many people have with wolves on the landscape because “they used to be here”. If you have those thoughts you have to couple them with I as a human used to not be here so should we revert back to not being here as to romanticize in the same fashion?
    I will get off my soapbox here and sum it up by saying sound management of wildlife should not be feelings based, it should be backed by science. Having the romantic megafauna feelings for wildlife should be kept in books and bedtime stories not in real life.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidoggy View Post
    wolves will knock the coyote population down. it has happened here in Idaho where the wolves thrive the coyotes ,not so much.

    however I do not see this as a positive . the wolves are a much bigger problem for the ranchers then the coyotes ever were.
    it's akin to killing of the bears to replace them with some t-rexs.

    but insanity reigns.


    jimp showed us being able to hunt them as a positive . and that is true .

    they will be fun to hunt when all other game is virtually wiped out. to be fair , that probably won't happen in our lifetimes though.


    what will happen in our lifetimes is..
    1 they will be introduced .
    2 it will take 10-15 years to reach target pops, so it will be at least that long before hunting will commence .( be of good cheer , in that first 10-15 years the impact will be relatively low on ungulate pops)

    3 when target pops are reached hunting will be denied for years while battling over a comprehensive plan to control them . expect lots of lawsuits by antis and colo can look forward to spending millions fighting for right to hunt them.(this will be the time frame when you can expect to start seeing your herds decimated.)

    4 in year 20-25 there will finally be a hunt but it will fall far short of any realistic ability for controlling them.
    (ungulate pops will continue to fall. revenue for division of wildlife will drop, while expenses for lawsuits continue to rise . division of wildlife will respond by doubling # of permits and raising tag prices which will only further exacerbate the problem. but all involved will continue to be to shortsighted to see it.)



    I can tell you, this will happen in Colo. I know this because it already did in Idaho, montana and Wyoming.


    I expect by year 50 or so ungulate pops will be so low people will more or less just stop hunting. revenues will drop . gun sales will fall . manufacturers will go bankrupt .

    it will be so expensive to own a gun , most will simply stop doing so.

    2nd amendment will be overturned and we will all get the opportunity firsthand to understand slavery.


    means to an end my friends ! means to an end!
    Dang that was bleak and depressing. I hope that is not the outcome that we see but I do fear for the future of the North American hunting way of life with all of the socialists running around today. Scary.

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  4. #23
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    It is truly a unique time for predators in our country.

    We have coyote populations encroaching on our urban space across the country.

    Bears attacks from Florida to the 60+ grizly killed around yellowstone last year that most people don't know about.

    Wolves from the great lakes to the southwest including popping up in places like Iowa on top of what we have in and around YNP, Montana, etc..

    Lion populations out of control and not hunted in many parts of the country.

    By far the most wild this country has been in many decades.

  5. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by taskswap View Post
    .

    .

    Nothing is simple. To be honest, I don't fully buy the arguments from either side here. It's like House said, "everybody lies." On this forum I've seen crazy statements like "wolves were never native here." That's totally untrue, they were native until as recently as 1940 when the last ones were eradicated.
    I am not a biologist, but as I understand it and from what I have read, the wolf that was native to Colorado and the southern Rockies was what everyone called a Timber Wolf. It was smaller and a different subspecies from the Canadian Gray Wolf that was introduced from Canada. The Timber Wolf is extinct. I believe it was a total misapplication of the Endangered Species Act as Congress intended it. The Canadian Wolf is no where near endangered. What's done is done and we can't go back, but I sure hope we done go down that road again!
    Colorado Cowboy
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  6. #25
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    Dont know if anyone here subscribes to Fur Fish Game magazine. But there was an interesting article in the most recent one about the old GOVT predator killers about killing the last pack in Colorado. Took them a long time to catch up to them. "Whitey" and "Three Toes".

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  8. #26
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  9. #27
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    Stop the Wolf in Colorado

    I?m going to start this out by saying I have no use for wolves, and see no value in reestablishing them anywhere. I?ll go a step further and admit I have no use for bears, of any kind, and saw no value in reestablishing them in my home state of Arkansas.

    That?s a selfish opinion though. I can see the other side of the coin. I can see the mystique of those who enjoy nature in a very different way than I do, and the perspective they have that going to a wild place (to them) like Yellowstone, and knowing there are wolves there as they existed in this country for centuries, and possibly even hearing one, is an experience they would enjoy.

    I think the original poster made a good recommendation, basically to keep this on a real level, and try to keep emotions out of it.
    From what I have read so far, if wolves are re-introduced into Colorado, the deer and elk will be wiped out, hunting will cease to exist, gun manufacturers will go bankrupt, for some reason we won?t be able to afford guns anymore, and the second amendment will be repealed.
    I am having a hard time comprehending how bringing wolves to Colorado will be the catalyst for all of that, but that certainly is not an argument that is going to stop wolves from coming into Colorado.

    I have to wonder, knowing that wolves existed in Colorado for centuries, were there no deer and elk in Colorado until the wolves disappeared? I realize fully that wolves will have an impact on ungulate populations. Maybe the herds have been completely wiped out in Yellowstone and there are no more deer and elk. I cannot speak to that.

    I am big on conservation, and I tend to support wildlife biologists more than most. I often wonder though, how we all got to the point of thinking that animal populations would cease to exist without humans managing them. I do notsay that to take away from the fact that hunters have had tremendous impacts on animal populations, and also are the largest collective group of conservationists in the world, but most of the impact we had and that was needed, was because of what we humans did to the populations to begin with.

    Buffalo for example needed help. Not because they could not survive without humans, but because they could not survive because of humans. We wiped out the buffalo, and then yes we restored them.

    So I am going to throw out a statement here, that a lot of people are going to immediately disagree with, but if you think about it long enough, and really sit and think about it, it will start to make sense. Hunting regulations exist not for the management of the animal because animals cannot survive without us managing them, but it exists for the management of human impact on the animals and the fact that if we do not manage ourselves, animals will cease to exist.

    I hear all the time that if hunting ceases to exist, game populations will explode, there will be no more food, and they will all die and they will no longer exist. The reality is, that is not true. Animals existed in this world long before humans existed in enough numbers to keep their populations down. Wildlife existed in this world and thrived for thousands to millions of years, depending on your perspective of how old the earth is. Wildlife management is basically about one century old. Animals did just fine before humans started managing them.

    Animals did just fine before humans started killing them all, therefore requiring a need to manage ourselves.

    Sure, If wolves are re-introduced in Colorado deer and elk numbers will probably go down. That is not something I want to hear, and one reason I as a hunter, will gladly do whatever I can from halfway across the country to try and assist in anyway I possibly can, to keep wolves from being brought back.

    But at the end of the day when the deer and elk numbers go down, the wolves will go down because they are going to have less to eat. When the wolf numbers go down, deer and elk numbers will go up. It is just a simple circle of life that the world used to manage wildlife since the beginning of time.

    It?s not appealing to us as hunters, that game populations may have an additional factor that is inhibits human control, in addition to bad winters , disease outbreak. At the end of the day though l, when the folks up and down I-25 decide they want to see wolves back in Colorado, it?s going to happen and no amount of emotional arguments about how it will affect hunting is going to make a dime?s worth a difference.

    Maybe the answer is compromise? How can everyone get what they want? I think that?s what you have to find and figure out. That?s the whole problem with this country today nobody is willing to give in and make compromises where everyone gets some of what they want.

    This is probably a stretch but for example what if an agreement was reached where wolves could be introduced back into RMNP, and any wolves seen outside of the boundaries could be shot on sight, anytime of the year. Is that going to guarantee that wolves will never spread to other parts of Colorado? Not necessarily, but I can guarantee you those dogs are smart enough they?ll learn the boundaries of where they?re safe and where they?re not. If a mallard duck can learn where the refugees are, a wolf definitely can.

    Anyway I just realized how long this was. I apologize for the rambling, just passing on some thoughts from a long way away.
    Last edited by stumpy waters; 05-25-2019 at 09:49 PM.

  10. #28
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    One thing about Colorado that may be different than other states....our National Forests have grazing leases for domestic cattle and sheep to graze them all summer. It is an important tool in forest management (and income for the gov't too). Here in SW Colorado literally thousands of them utilize these grazing leases. If wolves get established here, do you think a pack of wolves is going to chase down deer & elk when they can easily bring down a cow or calf? Guess again...... It will have a real impact on everything that is in the wolves range, including your dog if you live near their habitat.
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  11. #29
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    Stumpy; I agree with much of what you said, but would like to point out that the agreement that was made before wolves were reintroduced to Yellowstone was that the state of WY could manage the population outside the park. Lawsuits eventually stopped that, and it took further legislation to adjust that. Where I live in Minnesota we have 2,400 to 3,500 wolves and they are back on the protected list, and even with two democrat senators who support delisting, it hasn't happened. As far as the impact here from my personal experience; my son had a dog killed, a friend had two dogs killed, our deer camp used to average 8-12 deer a year, and the last six years it has dropped to almost zero, and it is making it even tougher on a struggling moose population. The only areas in the U.S. where the moose population is expanding are Colorado, and Isle Royale National Park. I am very familiar with the unique situation on IRNP, and won't delve further into that here, but in CO the wolf would definitely have a severe impact on moose.

  12. #30
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    I am not sure which is better, let the wolf come(they will) or reintroduce them?
    I live in an area that has wolves, I have them on my trail cams all the time.
    The wolf will not affect the serious elk hunter who is used to getting his elk EVERY year.
    The wolf will play havoc on the guy that gets his elk 1 out of 4 years. They guy who just stumbles around and has a vacation while he is elk hunting, won't shoot to many elk anymore.

    In my personal opionion it is not how many elk get eaten by wolfs, but how the wolfs affect the daily routine of the elk.
    Now after 20 years in Idaho, I believe the elk and wolf have come to a balance. That is just my humble opionion.
    Predator prey relationships have been going on since the beginning. I also run my own business and believe competition makes you better. Well hunters do have some dam good compition with wolves. Listening to them howl is pretty cool, knowing you have a pack coming in at night is down right spooky. But when you are howling back and forth to each other, its pretty cool, I just wish I wouldn't have ran out of daylight.

 

 
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