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  1. #11
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    Getting this re introduction is all part of the big plan to eliminate hunting and guns.
    Do you know what Jim Bridger said about the Indians? " Just when your not seeing any is about the time they are fixing to get the thickest"

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  3. #12
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    HERE IS THE PODCAST- give it a listen, there is a lot of good information there that will help you have conversations about what will happen if this ballot initiative successful.
    https://www.eastmans.com
    https://blog.eastmans.com
    https://www.wingmen.us
    https://www.instagram.com/eastmanshuntingjournals/

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  5. #13
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    A USFW deputy director told me their lawyers don't know what the measure might compel them to do, if anything.

    Considering the feds don't need to transplant a single wolf for Colorado to "have wolves", it would be advisable for residents of Colorado to spend their energy getting a management plan in place.

  6. #14
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    According to the CPW they already have a management plan. Even though I have heard that several times I have not seen what it consists of?

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  8. #15
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    Here is what they came up with for migrating wolfs.

    https://cpw.state.co.us/Documents/Wi...ch=wolf%20plan

    Here is a lot more reading

    https://cpw.state.co.us/Documents/Wi...ch=wolf%20plan


    Not saying if any of it will be actually implemented or changed but some kind of plan is in place.
    If you don't care where you are, you are not lost....

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  10. #16
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    They need a plan that will remove federal protections, allowing Colorado to assume management control. The only other hope is the usfw nationwide delisting proposal goes thru.

  11. #17
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    dont do it colorado!!! the revinue lost from big game hunters,,deer and elk number reductions,,let alone thropy species will cost colorado millions in losses..look at the devastation of herds in yellowstone as an example,,let alone damages playing havoc in montana,idaho,even oregon,and wyoming.also the economic livestock damage and losses..dont do it colorado,,your fools if ya do.

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  13. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidoggy View Post
    me to .

    just out of curiosity , what/how do you see the wolves benefiting??

    I ask because I see zero positive to them being introduced but many negatives.
    Coyotes are out of control here in CO, so much so that it's a 12-month season with no bag limit. They don't even go that far for the second most hated game here: the snow goose. Coyotes are a problem for a lot of ranchers and game species - even though they don't really go after full grown elk, they'll definitely harass fawns and calves, and some livestock.

    Why are we here? Well, like wolves people tried to eradicate them, but they're wilier and more adaptable so that failed. And since their only natural predator IS the wolf, their population exploded after that. Hunters aren't controlling them because they're not worth a damn to eat, their fur is gross, and they're full of mange and parasites. I once saw a guy pop two and go pack up his truck, he didn't even go check to be sure they were dead. I wouldn't do that with a squirrel.

    Nothing is simple. To be honest, I don't fully buy the arguments from either side here. It's like House said, "everybody lies." On this forum I've seen crazy statements like "wolves were never native here." That's totally untrue, they were native until as recently as 1940 when the last ones were eradicated. But that doesn't mean we aren't all working with what information we have, and sometimes that information is wrong.

    CPW gets it right a lot, I value and respect what they do. And they get it wrong sometimes too. When I did my hunter safety program, there was this big fuss over the Kaibab Plateau deer population. They're still using it as gospel, about how too much conservation can destroy the environment - "WHAT WE NEED IS RESPONSIBLE STEWARDSHIP! Conservation AND hunting coexisting!" And all that. I felt like I was at a sermon.

    The Kaibab Plateau is the story of the Kaibab deer herd, and how after Teddy Roosevelt declared the area a preserve and hunting the herd was stopped, the population exploded, they ate all the food, then they nearly all died of starvation in the following years. "Oops, guess we shouldn't have stopped the hunters." Now, it's what we all want to hear, so it's easy to believe, right? The first few Google hits seem to support it too.

    But if you do a little digging you'll find the real story is much more complicated than that. In 1973 CJ Burk re-examined the story and re-evaluated some additional data that people who tell that story don't tell you. His conclusion speaks for itself:

    What actually happened to the real deer out there on the Kaibab is not, apparently, quite so well understood as the myth would lead us to believe. Caughley (1970), reviewing ungulate irruptions, in general, within a more specific study of the Himalyan thar,' concludes, "data on the Kaibab deer herd . . . are unreliable and inconsistent, and the factors that may have resulted in an upsurge of deer are hopelessly confounded."

    Readers should consult the Caughley article and its sources for full details of the sequence of oversimplifications and distortions which have resulted in the Kaibab story as it now exists. Reinspecting the original documents and publications on the topic, Caughley discovered that the extent of the initial population irruption is not clear. Without question an increase in deer occurred, followed by overgrazing
    and decline. During 1924, however, the period when the deer were presumably most numerous, various observers estimated their population as high as 100,000, as low as 30,000, with guesses of 50,000, 60,000, and 70,000 bridging the interval. A dramatically explicit graph, reprinted in many textbooks, the latest to cross my desk being Invitation to Biology (Curtis 1972), is based on the maximum estimate and evolved by unjustified tamperings with an original which was itself based on a number of speculations and dubious assumptions.

    Moreover, while pumas and coyotes were, without question, removed from the range throughout the crucial period, sheep and cattle were also banished; the reduction in sheep alone from 1889 to 1908 might have totaled 195,000 animals, more than the mule deer at the height of their profligacy. Hence the irruption of deer, whatever its extent, may in large part have resulted from an increased food supply after removal of other herbivores which had competed with the deer for browse. A description of the fate of the Kaibab deer as "a well-documented example of what can happen when predators are removed" (Platt and Reid 1967) or "a case where the role of the predator is plainly seen" (Johnson, Delaney, Cole, and Brooks 1972) is scarcely justified.
    Despite this, it's still used as educational material. It's easy to believe because we want it to be true.

    "Trust, but verify." -Reagan
    Actual source: old Russian Proverb

    "Trust, but verify. Even when people say what you want to hear." -Me.
    Actual source: Me.

  14. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimP View Post
    Here is what they came up with for migrating wolfs.

    https://cpw.state.co.us/Documents/Wi...ch=wolf%20plan

    Here is a lot more reading

    https://cpw.state.co.us/Documents/Wi...ch=wolf%20plan


    Not saying if any of it will be actually implemented or changed but some kind of plan is in place.
    Thanks for sharing these, Jim. Definitely a lot of food for thought.

  15. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by taskswap View Post
    Coyotes are out of control here in CO, so much so that it's a 12-month season with no bag limit. They don't even go that far for the second most hated game here: the snow goose. Coyotes are a problem for a lot of ranchers and game species - even though they don't really go after full grown elk, they'll definitely harass fawns and calves, and some livestock.

    Why are we here? Well, like wolves people tried to eradicate them, but they're wilier and more adaptable so that failed. And since their only natural predator IS the wolf, their population exploded after that. Hunters aren't controlling them because they're not worth a damn to eat, their fur is gross, and they're full of mange and parasites. I once saw a guy pop two and go pack up his truck, he didn't even go check to be sure they were dead. I wouldn't do that with a squirrel.

    Nothing is simple. To be honest, I don't fully buy the arguments from either side here. It's like House said, "everybody lies." On this forum I've seen crazy statements like "wolves were never native here." That's totally untrue, they were native until as recently as 1940 when the last ones were eradicated. But that doesn't mean we aren't all working with what information we have, and sometimes that information is wrong.

    CPW gets it right a lot, I value and respect what they do. And they get it wrong sometimes too. When I did my hunter safety program, there was this big fuss over the Kaibab Plateau deer population. They're still using it as gospel, about how too much conservation can destroy the environment - "WHAT WE NEED IS RESPONSIBLE STEWARDSHIP! Conservation AND hunting coexisting!" And all that. I felt like I was at a sermon.

    The Kaibab Plateau is the story of the Kaibab deer herd, and how after Teddy Roosevelt declared the area a preserve and hunting the herd was stopped, the population exploded, they ate all the food, then they nearly all died of starvation in the following years. "Oops, guess we shouldn't have stopped the hunters." Now, it's what we all want to hear, so it's easy to believe, right? The first few Google hits seem to support it too.

    But if you do a little digging you'll find the real story is much more complicated than that. In 1973 CJ Burk re-examined the story and re-evaluated some additional data that people who tell that story don't tell you. His conclusion speaks for itself:



    Despite this, it's still used as educational material. It's easy to believe because we want it to be true.

    "Trust, but verify." -Reagan
    Actual source: old Russian Proverb

    "Trust, but verify. Even when people say what you want to hear." -Me.
    Actual source: Me.
    wolves will knock the coyote population down. it has happened here in Idaho where the wolves thrive the coyotes ,not so much.

    however I do not see this as a positive . the wolves are a much bigger problem for the ranchers then the coyotes ever were.
    it's akin to killing of the bears to replace them with some t-rexs.

    but insanity reigns.


    jimp showed us being able to hunt them as a positive . and that is true .

    they will be fun to hunt when all other game is virtually wiped out. to be fair , that probably won't happen in our lifetimes though.


    what will happen in our lifetimes is..
    1 they will be introduced .
    2 it will take 10-15 years to reach target pops, so it will be at least that long before hunting will commence .( be of good cheer , in that first 10-15 years the impact will be relatively low on ungulate pops)

    3 when target pops are reached hunting will be denied for years while battling over a comprehensive plan to control them . expect lots of lawsuits by antis and colo can look forward to spending millions fighting for right to hunt them.(this will be the time frame when you can expect to start seeing your herds decimated.)

    4 in year 20-25 there will finally be a hunt but it will fall far short of any realistic ability for controlling them.
    (ungulate pops will continue to fall. revenue for division of wildlife will drop, while expenses for lawsuits continue to rise . division of wildlife will respond by doubling # of permits and raising tag prices which will only further exacerbate the problem. but all involved will continue to be to shortsighted to see it.)



    I can tell you, this will happen in Colo. I know this because it already did in Idaho, montana and Wyoming.


    I expect by year 50 or so ungulate pops will be so low people will more or less just stop hunting. revenues will drop . gun sales will fall . manufacturers will go bankrupt .

    it will be so expensive to own a gun , most will simply stop doing so.

    2nd amendment will be overturned and we will all get the opportunity firsthand to understand slavery.


    means to an end my friends ! means to an end!
    Last edited by kidoggy; 05-17-2019 at 06:30 PM.
    AS GOES THE CHURCH, SO GOES THE NATION


    tolerance of the nation ,makes the nation an obamination !

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